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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
>We are gods ourselves if we can create and >breathe life back into dead people, so what's the sense in worshipping >some invisible god who can do the same thing? A very insightful comment. We can indeed create, and we'd be dangerous if we ever learned how to focus our thoughts. (We can't, however, create life, and CPR is not actually "breathing life into dead people"; it's jump-starting bodily functions--the body is a physical thing and is subject to physical stimuli.) And the concept of "worship" seems to me to be a truly earth-bound thing. True love does not want, and certainly does not demand, worship. |
| #2 | |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
CAndersen (Kimba) <KimbaWLion@aol.com> wrote in alt.atheism
> Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote: >> We are gods ourselves if we can create and breathe life back >> into dead people, so what's the sense in worshipping >> some invisible god who can do the same thing? > A very insightful comment. We can indeed create, and we'd be dangerous if > we ever learned how to focus our thoughts. (We can't, however, create life, > and CPR is not actually "breathing life into dead people"; it's > jump-starting bodily functions--the body is a physical thing and is subject > to physical stimuli.) If we can jump-start bodily functions, how is that not like "breathing life" into a dead body? Where does some soul or life force fit into such things? It hangs around a dead body for a while, and eventually decides to go away or jump into some other body? > And the concept of "worship" seems to me to be a truly earth-bound > thing. True love does not want, and certainly does not demand, worship. If it's just an electro-chemical reaction in the brain, then it couldn't really want anything. I do believe that some people can actually get addicted to the feelings of love, though, and since "they" are really just their bodies and brains, then I guess it's a case of the brain and body becoming addicted to its own actions. -- Elroy Willis EAP Chief Editor and Newshound http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
>If it's just an electro-chemical reaction in the brain, then it >couldn't really want anything. Your ultra-reductionist thinking invalidates your own statement. By your line of thought, "want" (or desire), another emotion, must be just another electro-chemical reaction and therefore "want couldn't really want anything", which is ridiculous. There is something more behind all this than just chemicals and physics. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
CAndersen (Kimba) writes:
> And the concept of "worship" seems to me to be > a truly earth-bound thing. It's a projection of human defects onto a supreme being. A supreme being does not require or want worship. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
| #5 | |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
CAndersen (Kimba) <KimbaWLion@aol.com> wrote in alt.atheism
> Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote: >> If it's just an electro-chemical reaction in the brain, then it >> couldn't really want anything. > Your ultra-reductionist thinking invalidates your own statement. > By your line of thought, "want" (or desire), another emotion, must be just > another electro-chemical reaction and therefore "want couldn't really want > anything", which is ridiculous. Ridiculous to you perhaps. You're the one who's personifying things like love and emotions and desires and giving them spiritual identities or something like that. All I'm saying is that they come from the brain and there are no outside entities involved. > There is something more behind all this than just chemicals and physics. Yeah, your ego. -- Elroy Willis EAP Chief Editor and Newshound http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Elroy Willis writes:
> You're the one who's personifying things like love > and emotions and desires and giving them spiritual > identities or something like that. How would you characterize them? Can you provide physical descriptions of love and emotions? > All I'm saying is that they come from the brain > and there are no outside entities involved. Then explain how the brain produces them, and what form they take, physically. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mike Smith writes:
> Ahh..... so you know something about a Supreme Being. We all know something about a supreme being. > What are some other attributes? It's more a question of what a supreme being is not. A supreme being is not a comic-book character or an old man with white hair. A supreme being is not a jealous, angry, temperamental supernatural being that behaves like a spoiled child at every opportunity. A supreme being does not exhibit pride, anger, sadness, or any of a wide range of emotions that human beings persist in projecting upon it. > And, BTW, how do you happen to "know" this? Because it is logically inevitable. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mike Smith writes: |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mike Smith writes:
> Logic... that would be a human invention, right? I don't know. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Elroy Willis writes:
> Why is that, exactly? The things a supreme being is not are often things that we comprehend easily. It is much more difficult to comprehend what a supreme being _is_. > According to the Bible, the supreme being who created > the entire universe mounted a cherub one day and > rode across the sky. So? > Do you believe that story? No. > Maybe you realize that verse is just about > the sun or maybe a planet instead of some actual > creator god. I can't say that I care. > Not only is he a jealous god, but his name is > jealous too! The Bible is not a reliable source of information on the supreme being. > Guess you're rolling your own god at this point, or > at least tossing out the Jewish god(s). Correct. I'm interested in the truth, not in fantasy. > You obviously don't subscribe to or believe in the god > character portrayed in Jewish or Muslim or Christian > writings. Correct. Although the Muslim conception of God is much less absurd than that of Judaism. Christianity spends so much time on the Jesus personality cult that the supreme being itself is largely neglected. > Can't very well recognize that light is good > with taking pride in creating it, can you? Why not? Not that it matters. Why are you quoting the Bible? > What's left then? I notice you didn't mention love. Love is the principal manifestation of the supreme being. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
"CAndersen (Kimba)" <KimbaWLion@aol.com> wrote in message news:u8cggvo28v5leir5bkgkt04f2kr5mlk0qp@4ax.com... > Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote: > > >We are gods ourselves if we can create and > >breathe life back into dead people, I do believe that if there are any Gods at all, its us. Look at the wonderful civilisation we have created, roads, buildings, bridges, automobiles, ships, submarines, aeroplanes, rockets, space satellites, medical and other technologies, and this wonderful computer and the internet that enables us invisible people to communicate with each other. Heck, if Jesus returned to this age, he wouldn't believe that we could build all this, it had to be the gods. And then somebody would remind him "didn't you say we were gods"? :-) >>so what's the sense in worshipping > >some invisible god who can do the same thing? Invisible god? I would rather say conjured god. Ben |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:np9hgv47cutgdmtu4ebo51adegvjthho6f@4ax.com... > CAndersen (Kimba) writes: > > > And the concept of "worship" seems to me to be > > a truly earth-bound thing. > > It's a projection of human defects onto a supreme being. A supreme > being does not require or want worship. Correct. Is HE around? Really wish I could find him and offer a prayer or two if he would like it. Harder to know what he likes, for God's sake. :-) Ben |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:cgihgv41oq7vumdgubd7itjv1odm2sujsi@4ax.com... > Mike Smith writes: > > > Ahh..... so you know something about a Supreme Being. > > We all know something about a supreme being. Like what? You KNOW or you HEARD? We are serious people here. I really would like to KNOW! > > > What are some other attributes? > > It's more a question of what a supreme being is not. A supreme being is > not a comic-book character or an old man with white hair. A supreme > being is not a jealous, angry, temperamental supernatural being that > behaves like a spoiled child at every opportunity. A supreme being does > not exhibit pride, anger, sadness, or any of a wide range of emotions > that human beings persist in projecting upon it. > > > And, BTW, how do you happen to "know" this? > > Because it is logically inevitable. > > -- > Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
| #14 | |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
"Mike Smith" <mikesmith@godisdead.com> wrote in message news:dhqhgv07md3o26jlva55qs0kn4bjs48pcc@4ax.com... > Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote: > > =Mike Smith writes: > = > => Ahh..... so you know something about a Supreme Being. > = > =We all know something about a supreme being. > > Not me. I haven't seen any. That makes two of us. > > => What are some other attributes? > = > =It's more a question of what a supreme being is not. > =A supreme being is not a comic-book character or an > =old man with white hair. A supreme being is not a jealous, > =angry, temperamental supernatural being that behaves > =like a spoiled child at every opportunity. A supreme being > =does not exhibit pride, anger, sadness, or any of a wide > =range of emotions that human beings persist in projecting > =upon it. > = > => And, BTW, how do you happen to "know" this? > = > =Because it is logically inevitable. > > Logic... that would be a human invention, right? > __________________________________________ > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH > __________________________________________ > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > "To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: > for his mercy endureth for ever." - Psalms 136:10 |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:378igvk6oi9cakkkfa35t1dksk474q2bn0@4ax.com... > Elroy Willis writes: > > > Why is that, exactly? > > The things a supreme being is not are often things that we comprehend > easily. It is much more difficult to comprehend what a supreme being > _is_. > > > According to the Bible, the supreme being who created > > the entire universe mounted a cherub one day and > > rode across the sky. > > So? > > > Do you believe that story? > > No. > > > Maybe you realize that verse is just about > > the sun or maybe a planet instead of some actual > > creator god. > > I can't say that I care. > > > Not only is he a jealous god, but his name is > > jealous too! > > The Bible is not a reliable source of information on the supreme being. I haven't found it to be a reliable source for anything. Is there anything reliable in it? > > > Guess you're rolling your own god at this point, or > > at least tossing out the Jewish god(s). > > Correct. I'm interested in the truth, not in fantasy. > > > You obviously don't subscribe to or believe in the god > > character portrayed in Jewish or Muslim or Christian > > writings. > > Correct. Although the Muslim conception of God is much less absurd than > that of Judaism. Christianity spends so much time on the Jesus > personality cult that the supreme being itself is largely neglected. Correct. Considering that Jesus had nothing to do with christianity at all! > > > Can't very well recognize that light is good > > with taking pride in creating it, can you? > > Why not? Not that it matters. > > Why are you quoting the Bible? > > > What's left then? I notice you didn't mention love. > > Love is the principal manifestation of the supreme being. To all those who have been misled into worshipping this god of the religions. Please convince yourself of his existence by answering the W3 program: What is god? Who is god? Where is god? If you're unable to answer, don't you think its a waste of time? Consider also that the religions created this god for their own ulterior motives. It is not that HE created US in his own image. Its the other way around. Ben |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Nokia writes:
> So far, all research into the brain has found that > all processes are caused by electric pulses inside > and between neurons. Okay. > If you claim some processes are caused by something > else, you contradict the WHOLE of neuroscience, > biology and neuropsychology. So does consciousness. > If you somehow think that all those scientists are > wrong, and you are right, maybe you like to provide > some proof. Think how convincing it would be for you to explain the physical basis for consciousness. One wonders why you don't do so. > If you don't, you're just another clueless troll. Since you haven't answered my questions, does that make you a "clueless troll" also? If not, explain why it would do this for me, but not for you. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Ben Stevenson writes:
> Once death has occurred, hardly is it ever possible > to bring him back. What specific change marks the point of no return at death? -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Ben Stevenson writes:
> I haven't found it to be a reliable source for anything. > Is there anything reliable in it? I've heard it said that it is moderately useful as a purely historical document ... probably only because other sources are scarce or even more vague. I am wary of trusting it even in that capacity, however. > Considering that Jesus had nothing to do with christianity > at all! He was unusual in that respect. Most founders of a religion took an active part in the founding of their respective corporations. > To all those who have been misled into worshipping > this god of the religions. There is no need to worship a supreme being. > What is god? A supreme being, the creator of the universe. > Who is god? See above. > Where is god? Everywhere, probably. > If you're unable to answer, don't you think its a > waste of time? No. A supreme being helps to solve many problems raised by the metaphysical nature of consciousness. There is no proof of the supreme being's existence (except by some very convoluted logic I've used in the past), but things make a lot more sense with one than without one. > Consider also that the religions created this god > for their own ulterior motives. It is not that HE > created US in his own image. Its the other way around. Entirely true, for organized religions. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Ben Stevenson writes:
> Like what? You KNOW or you HEARD? We are serious > people here. I really would like to KNOW! We are conscious entities, and this consciousness derives from the supreme being. So to the extent that we are self-aware, we know something of the supreme being's nature. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Ben Stevenson writes:
> Is HE around? You mean IT. > Really wish I could find him and offer a prayer or > two if he would like it. A supreme being does not require or answer prayer. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Ben Stevenson writes:
> I do believe that if there are any Gods at all, > its us. This statement is more correct than it might superficially sound. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
We are conscious entities, and this consciousness derives |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:20:27 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com>
wrote: >Think how convincing it would be for you to explain the physical basis >for consciousness. One wonders why you don't do so. Ah, shifting the burden of proof. YOU are making claims about the origin of consciousness, YOU provide the proof. -- Highpriest in the Church Of The Invisible Pink Unicorn |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mike Smith writes:
> Evidence for this? None. The supreme being part is conjecture, but it does have a certain logical appeal. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mike Smith writes: |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Nokia writes:
> Ah, shifting the burden of proof. No, just sharing it. I don't ask for more proof than I give. > YOU are making claims about the origin of > consciousness, YOU provide the proof. I'm not claiming that consciousness is a physical phenomenon. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mike Smith writes: |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Once you accept the concept of a god and doubt it's existence, then by logic
it exists in reality. Anth "Mike Smith" <mikesmith@godisdead.com> wrote in message news:hqvigv0c0fgmbpq8d5n6rh4s1ad66f0ubu@4ax.com... > Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote: > > =We are conscious entities, and this consciousness derives > =from the supreme being. > > Evidence for this? > __________________________________________ > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH > __________________________________________ > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ > "And these signs shall follow them that believe; > In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall > speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; > and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not > hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and > they shall recover." - Mark 16:17-18 |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
>> What's left then? I notice you didn't mention love. > Love is the principal manifestation of the supreme being. Prove it. -- Elroy Willis EAP Chief Editor and Newshound http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Elroy Willis writes:
> Prove it. I can't. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mike Smith writes:
> Heh. It's an easy answer, you mean. It answers a lot of open questions if one assumes the existence of a supreme being. It's a good working theory. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Nokia <nokiamail@hotpop.com> wrote:
>So far, all research into the brain has found that all processes are >caused by electric pulses inside and between neurons. IOW, all functions found in the brain are caused by things contained in the brain. Well, duh. >If you claim some processes are caused by something else, you >contradict the WHOLE of neuroscience, biology and neuropsychology. If you're claiming that consciousness is a product of the brain, you certainly made one hell of a leap of faith from your previous statement. |
| #33 | |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What specific change marks the point of no return at death? When the spirit-body connection is broken. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
CAndersen (Kimba) writes:
> When the spirit-body connection is broken. But if there is no spirit, there is no connection to break. I was asking what purely physical change marks the point of no return at death. As far as I know, there is no such point of demarcation. Ultimately, life ceases, as you imply, when the resident consciousness departs. If you step out of a slow-moving car, it will continue to move forward until it runs out of fuel or hits something. Conversely, if you are driving a car in very poor condition, you can often keep it moving far longer than it might move if left on its own, by playing with the accelerator or by other means. -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
CAndersen (Kimba) <KimbaWLion@aol.com> wrote in alt.atheism
> Ben Stevenson <nospam@firemail.com> wrote: >> What is god? > Love >> Who is god? > Everyone >> Where is god? > Everywhere Another person addicted to love. -- Elroy Willis EAP Chief Editor and Newshound http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
Elroy Willis <elo@airmail.net> wrote:
>Another person addicted to love. Might as well face it. |
| #37 | |
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Re: Out of body experience medically reproduced?
In article <jo4lgv89gb325ojevejg9rb4qtf5afe4qt@4ax.com>, Elroy Willis says...
> >CAndersen (Kimba) <KimbaWLion@aol.com> wrote in alt.atheism > >> Ben Stevenson <nospam@firemail.com> wrote: > >>> What is god? > >> Love > >>> Who is god? > >> Everyone > >>> Where is god? > >> Everywhere > >Another person addicted to love. You might as well face it  Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557 |
