Mark

Hi,

A lack of space has forced me to start thinking of a way to build a
decent model railway that can be folded away when not in use.

I was walking through B&Q yesterday when something caught my eye...a
2'x6' pasting table with extra legs to provide stability. I then had a
lightbulb moment - two of them in an L-shape would fit perfectly in my
room and (with a bit of care when laying track) can easily be folded
away when not in use. The construction would appear to be hardboard on
top of a...er..."normal" wood frame.

So here's the questions:

1) Has anyone had any experience of using sturdy pasting tables as
baseboards? If so, have they been any good? How easy was it to
overcome laying rails over the "snap" in the middle?

2) Can anyone point me in the direction of a book of plans that
contains L-shaped layouts? Obviously it would involve a fiddle yard of
some description, but I think I've reached the age (20) where I want
to be involved with the layout and not just watch the trains go round
and round!

Thanks in advance.

Peter Abraham

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:38:42 -0700, Mark <marks87@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>A lack of space has forced me to start thinking of a way to build a
>decent model railway that can be folded away when not in use.
>
>I was walking through B&Q yesterday when something caught my eye...a
>2'x6' pasting table with extra legs to provide stability. I then had a
>lightbulb moment - two of them in an L-shape would fit perfectly in my
>room and (with a bit of care when laying track) can easily be folded
>away when not in use. The construction would appear to be hardboard on
>top of a...er..."normal" wood frame.
>
>So here's the questions:
>
>1) Has anyone had any experience of using sturdy pasting tables as
>baseboards? If so, have they been any good? How easy was it to
>overcome laying rails over the "snap" in the middle?
>
>2) Can anyone point me in the direction of a book of plans that
>contains L-shaped layouts? Obviously it would involve a fiddle yard of
>some description, but I think I've reached the age (20) where I want
>to be involved with the layout and not just watch the trains go round
>and round!
>
>Thanks in advance.


Over these past many years I have found that this type of hardboard
surfaced paste board warps in no time. The idea is sound so maybe
the hardboard could be removed and replaced with 3mm ply or better
still 5mm.

As your absolute max curve = 2 ft radius I assume that you are
contemplating N gauge?

Mark

Hmmm...that's an idea. And the construction of the table would make it
manageable - it only appears to be pins that's holding the hardboard
in place.

As for the gauge - wouldn't 00 be OK? I've got a substantial amount of
track and stock from an old layout that I'm wanting to recycle to
reduce costs (and to be honest, is the only gauge I've ever known!).
I'm not wanting to create a loop - the only major curve involved would
be to turn into the fiddle yard.

Having said that, way from the curve radius issue, would N be better
anyway from the point of view of being able to fit more in?

Jim Guthrie

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:10:26 -0700, Mark <marks87@gmail.com> wrote:

Mark,

>Hmmm...that's an idea. And the construction of the table would make it
>manageable - it only appears to be pins that's holding the hardboard
>in place.

Another consideration would be the hinged join in these tables. Any
time I've used one, it always assumes a shallow 'V' shape which is no
big deal when pasting paper, but could cause some problems with track
joins and unintended gradients :-)

Also the general construction is very flimsy and it would be difficult
to use the hinge facility since the surfaces meet when the table is
closed. You really want hinges mounted on raising blocks so that
there is clearance at least for track and low structures.

If you've got the additional room, look at using two cheap 6' 6" x 2'
6" doors on cheap trestles which will give you a better base which is
'quick and dirty'. Another possibility for support is to hinge the
baseboards to the wall so that they can be put up for storage, or
dropped down onto legs for running. the boards have to be hinged some
distance from the wall to give room for structures on the layout. Or
use something like 12mm MDF with a minimal amount of 2" x 1" bracing
longitudinally either stood on trestles or hinged to the wall. You
might try chipboard as well. Both MDF and chipboard should be sealed
with primer since they react unfavourably to water, and you might
want to use water on the baseboard for scenic treatments, etc.

But you might want to look at building better baseboards. I build
mine from thin ply sheet and you can put them together quite quickly.
I've got a web site which shows how I built some using bandage and PVA
to make the joins and it didn't require much expertise in carpentry.

http://www.sprok01.plus.com/baseboard/base02.html

I used bandage + PVA on the first board, and No More Nails on the
second board - both of which worked. But I've just built a third
board and used 50mm self adhesive plasterer's webbing tape from B&Q
instead of bandage with Unibond PVA, and that has worked very well.

because I was wanting to use the boards 'upside down', I cut out the
base sheet to allow access, but if you want to use them sheet side
up, then you don't have to cut holes in the sheet. The finished
boards are quite light and easily carried around. This is a big
advantage if you intend to move things single handed. You've no idea
how unwieldy a largish, heavy baseboard can be, especially when its
got track, buildings and scenery on it that have to be protected :-)

Jim.

gene

You might want to think about consulting the guys in this group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/small-layout-design/ about your plans and
space issues....they are masters of small space layouts and clever ideas for
folding baseboards.
I've always found them to be very friendly and helpful.
Cheers
Gene

<Jim Guthrie> wrote in message
news:5hv4a3hgtegpga63f6dsnemlcl2cd9cdpu@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:10:26 -0700, Mark <marks87@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
>>Hmmm...that's an idea. And the construction of the table would make it
>>manageable - it only appears to be pins that's holding the hardboard
>>in place.
>
> Another consideration would be the hinged join in these tables. Any
> time I've used one, it always assumes a shallow 'V' shape which is no
> big deal when pasting paper, but could cause some problems with track
> joins and unintended gradients :-)
>
> Also the general construction is very flimsy and it would be difficult
> to use the hinge facility since the surfaces meet when the table is
> closed. You really want hinges mounted on raising blocks so that
> there is clearance at least for track and low structures.
>
> If you've got the additional room, look at using two cheap 6' 6" x 2'
> 6" doors on cheap trestles which will give you a better base which is
> 'quick and dirty'. Another possibility for support is to hinge the
> baseboards to the wall so that they can be put up for storage, or
> dropped down onto legs for running. the boards have to be hinged some
> distance from the wall to give room for structures on the layout. Or
> use something like 12mm MDF with a minimal amount of 2" x 1" bracing
> longitudinally either stood on trestles or hinged to the wall. You
> might try chipboard as well. Both MDF and chipboard should be sealed
> with primer since they react unfavourably to water, and you might
> want to use water on the baseboard for scenic treatments, etc.
>
> But you might want to look at building better baseboards. I build
> mine from thin ply sheet and you can put them together quite quickly.
> I've got a web site which shows how I built some using bandage and PVA
> to make the joins and it didn't require much expertise in carpentry.
>
> http://www.sprok01.plus.com/baseboard/base02.html
>
> I used bandage + PVA on the first board, and No More Nails on the
> second board - both of which worked. But I've just built a third
> board and used 50mm self adhesive plasterer's webbing tape from B&Q
> instead of bandage with Unibond PVA, and that has worked very well.
>
> because I was wanting to use the boards 'upside down', I cut out the
> base sheet to allow access, but if you want to use them sheet side
> up, then you don't have to cut holes in the sheet. The finished
> boards are quite light and easily carried around. This is a big
> advantage if you intend to move things single handed. You've no idea
> how unwieldy a largish, heavy baseboard can be, especially when its
> got track, buildings and scenery on it that have to be protected :-)
>
> Jim.
>

John Turner

"Mark" wrote

> As for the gauge - wouldn't 00 be OK? I've got a substantial amount of
> track and stock from an old layout that I'm wanting to recycle to
> reduce costs (and to be honest, is the only gauge I've ever known!).

I'm currently building a OO-gauge branch line terminus to fiddle yard layout
using 18in wide boards measuring 6ft 3in x 9ft 6in ovarall, with the three
road fiddle yard on the shorter section. The minimum radius is over 3ft and
I'm using Peco Code 75 medium (36in) radius or curved points throughout.

My only problem so far is that I'm going to need a 12in (removable)
extension to the fiddle yard to allow me to run three (Mk1) coach trains,
but apart from that the dimensions do not see terribly far adrift from your
original concept.

Other than the fiddle yard extension the other boards will sit permanently
above the bookcases and other storage space in my small study, which also
has to accodate the desk on which my computer and film scanner sits.

Not ideal I know, but the best I can do as an interim measure whilst I
consider O-gauge in the garden or a loft conversion.

John.

Nigel Cliffe

Mark wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A lack of space has forced me to start thinking of a way to build a
> decent model railway that can be folded away when not in use.
>
> I was walking through B&Q yesterday when something caught my eye...a
> 2'x6' pasting table with extra legs to provide stability. I then had a
> lightbulb moment - two of them in an L-shape would fit perfectly in my
> room and (with a bit of care when laying track) can easily be folded
> away when not in use. The construction would appear to be hardboard on
> top of a...er..."normal" wood frame.
>
> So here's the questions:
>
> 1) Has anyone had any experience of using sturdy pasting tables as
> baseboards? If so, have they been any good? How easy was it to
> overcome laying rails over the "snap" in the middle?

Don't bother.
Yes pasting tables are cheap. They are meant to last long enough to paper a
room.
There isn't a way to keep them stable from warping and twisting, so your
layout will resemble an earthquake area within days.


You can build pack-away or folding baseboards.
They can be very light. You can use materials such as foamboard with a
little re-inforcing at the edges to make it super-light.
They can align very accurately if you use appropriate pegs/dowels to align
things.

If the boards have an integral back scene, then joining along the base plus
the top of the back scene will result in a three-point fixing, which is
sufficiently stable to avoid flexing of the board over the joint.





> 2) Can anyone point me in the direction of a book of plans that
> contains L-shaped layouts? Obviously it would involve a fiddle yard of
> some description, but I think I've reached the age (20) where I want
> to be involved with the layout and not just watch the trains go round
> and round!


Others have suggested possibles.


I'd also suggest a wander over to the micro layout website at
http://carendt.us/




- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Mark Goodge

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:48:52 +0200, Peter Abraham put finger to
keyboard and typed:
>
>
>Over these past many years I have found that this type of hardboard
>surfaced paste board warps in no time. The idea is sound so maybe
>the hardboard could be removed and replaced with 3mm ply or better
>still 5mm.
>
>As your absolute max curve = 2 ft radius I assume that you are
>contemplating N gauge?

The maximum radius is a lot more than that. The curve doesn't have to
be contained within the width of one baseboard; that's the advantage
of an L-shaped layout. The actual maximum is closer to 4 ft.

Mark
--
http://www.BritishSurnames.co.uk - What does your surname say about you?
"A singing bird in an open cage who will only fly, only fly for freedom"

John Firth

"Mark" <marks87@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185050322.146992.102570@57g2000hsv.googlegro ups.com...
> Hi,
>
> A lack of space has forced me to start thinking of a way to build a
> decent model railway that can be folded away when not in use.
>
> I was walking through B&Q yesterday when something caught my eye...a
> 2'x6' pasting table with extra legs to provide stability. I then had a
> lightbulb moment - two of them in an L-shape would fit perfectly in my
> room and (with a bit of care when laying track) can easily be folded
> away when not in use. The construction would appear to be hardboard on
> top of a...er..."normal" wood frame.
>
> So here's the questions:
>
> 1) Has anyone had any experience of using sturdy pasting tables as
> baseboards? If so, have they been any good? How easy was it to
> overcome laying rails over the "snap" in the middle?
>
> 2) Can anyone point me in the direction of a book of plans that
> contains L-shaped layouts? Obviously it would involve a fiddle yard of
> some description, but I think I've reached the age (20) where I want
> to be involved with the layout and not just watch the trains go round
> and round!
>
> Thanks in advance.
>

Have you considered using a spiral with the fiddle yard underneath? White
Rose Modelworks 01677422444 do them They advertise in Railway Modeller as
well. Thought about going down that road myself but managed to acquireextra
space on tye same level

John

Mark

Thanks for all the responses and ideas guys.

I'll take a look at them in more detail and compose a response when
I've got a bit more time :-)

Martin Wynne

Hi Mark,

> 2) Can anyone point me in the direction of a book
> of plans that contains L-shaped layouts? Obviously
> it would involve a fiddle yard of some description,
> but I think I've reached the age (20) where I want
> to be involved with the layout and not just watch
> the trains go round and round!

I would suggest that you forget about the L-shape and build
a straight layout in the space you have on the long side - 8' x 2'.
The problem with going round the corner is that a curve of
anywhere decent radius, say 30" as a min, is going to take up
so much of the length that there is no space left for pointwork
and a reasonable length of run. Using a sharper corner radius
makes it impossible to include any pointwork on the curve,
and using an easier radius takes up all the length.

Also, a 90-degree sharp curve looks so much like a train set
that it's difficult to devise a scenic treatment which looks at all
realistic. It may be worth putting up with that if it means you can
achieve a continuous run, or you have space to hide the curve,
but not otherwise.

A better answer is to use the side table as storage for cassettes
instead of a fiddle yard. The main layout is then mainly straight
and can use the full length with only a small area needed behind
scenery on one side where the cassettes are connected on.

As an extreme example of this idea, have a look at a plan called
"Mawley Oak" on this page:

http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm

(Long page - scroll 2/3rds of the way down or Ctrl-F on mawley.)

It was designed for 0 gauge, but if implemented in 00 it would fit
in a space only 5' x 1'. You have more than 3 times that area,
so the basic idea could be expanded to a very satisfactory small
layout in your available space, with convenient cassette storage
to one side.

Many folks dislike cassettes, but they do make a good alternative
to a fiddle yard when space for pointwork is tight.

regards,

Martin.
-------------------------
http://www.templot.com

John Turner

"Martin Wynne" wrote

> I would suggest that you forget about the L-shape and build
> a straight layout in the space you have on the long side - 8' x 2'.
> The problem with going round the corner is that a curve of
> anywhere decent radius, say 30" as a min, is going to take up
> so much of the length that there is no space left for pointwork
> and a reasonable length of run.

Much of my station throat pointwork is actually 'on' the curve, hence the
use of curved points. If there's a will there's a way!

John.

BILL

hi Mark there is an article in this months Hornby mag from a guy who used
paste tables as a base his name is Mike Upton from Tring and District MRC=
www.tdmrc.co.uk.. There are also some good plans for main line terminus to
fiddle yardin small areas in the mag


regards Bill

manatbandq@hotmail.com

On Jul 22, 12:18 pm, Martin Wynne <___gro...@templot.com> wrote:
>
> As an extreme example of this idea, have a look at a plan called
> "Mawley Oak" on this page:
>
> http://www.templot.com/martweb/templot.htm
>
> (Long page - scroll 2/3rds of the way down or Ctrl-F on mawley.)
>
> It was designed for 0 gauge, but if implemented in 00 it would fit
> in a space only 5' x 1'. You have more than 3 times that area,

It's length that is the issue, not area. The OP wants an L shape using
two 6' table which implies the maximum length he has is 8' for a
straight run. Still longer than the requirement you give but a lot
less than 3 times.

MBQ

Martin Wynne

> If he has the time to invest in the learning curve,
> and is not planning to hand build the track, then he
> would be better with layout planning software like
> XTrkCad (free), rather than track design software.

I agree. My Templot track design software is intended for folks who
*build their own track*. I always steer those looking to do layout
design
with ready-made commercial track to either XTrkCad (2D) or
3rd PlanIt (3D) instead.

As regards the learning curve, I have re-published the XTrkCad Help
file in a fully indexed and searchable form at:

http://templot.info/xtrkcad_help

regards,

Martin.
----------------------------------
http://www.templot.com