Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC

I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is
too!

As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as
delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done
Bachmann.

Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires
linking loco to tender, (via some *very* nice micro plugs and
sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender.

As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and
since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco -
tender wiring.

There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
which can be dispensed with?

Thanks in anticipation,
John Isherwood.

On Jul 26, 12:52 pm, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is
> too!
>
> As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as
> delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done
> Bachmann.
>
> Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires
> linking loco to tender, (via some *very* nice micro plugs and
> sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender.
>
> As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and
> since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco -
> tender wiring.
>
> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
> which can be dispensed with?
>

No, no one can, not without knowing where they are connected, since
DCC uses red and black for track pickup and orange and grey for the
motor, so Bachmann didn't do a very good job here.

If there's a standard DCC socket in the tender then you can work out
the connections from RP-9.1.1:

http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/st...rps/rp911.html

MBQ

Many thanks - I'll have the loco and tender bodies off on Saturday and
work it out.

Regards,
John isherwood.

<manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185458038.728174.143630@g12g2000prg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jul 26, 12:52 pm, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is
>> too!
>>
>> As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as
>> delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done
>> Bachmann.
>>
>> Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires
>> linking loco to tender, (via some *very* nice micro plugs and
>> sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender.
>>
>> As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and
>> since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco -
>> tender wiring.
>>
>> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
>> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
>> which can be dispensed with?
>>
>
> No, no one can, not without knowing where they are connected, since
> DCC uses red and black for track pickup and orange and grey for the
> motor, so Bachmann didn't do a very good job here.
>
> If there's a standard DCC socket in the tender then you can work out
> the connections from RP-9.1.1:
>
> http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/st...rps/rp911.html
>
> MBQ
>
Do they not just refer to the chip connectors. What is used everywhere else
is not defined - true it would be nice though.

Presume they are 2 from the track pickups and 2 for the motor so they just
want connecting to each other.
Simple, cut all then use a meter connected between one side of wheels and
test each wire in turn. Repeat for the other side. That gives the 2 pickups.
Connect each to one of the remaning wires and see if loco goes the usual
direction and swap if dont.

Cheers,
Simon

"cctransuk" wrote

> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
> which can be dispensed with?

I think this follows standard Bachmann USA practice, in which case the
mini-plug which carries just two wires is transferring +ve & -ve current
picked up from the loco power collectors to the DCC socket in the tender.
If you connect these direct to the motor instead of two of the four wires
coming from the DCC socket that should circumvent the wiring in tender
altogether.

Another option thought might be to fit additional pick-ups to the tender and
use some of the exiting wiring to transfer this back to the motor in the
loco.

John.

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:13ai54r87rl5d2e@news.supernews.com...
>
> "cctransuk" wrote
>
>> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
>> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
>> which can be dispensed with?
>
> I think this follows standard Bachmann USA practice, in which case the
> mini-plug which carries just two wires is transferring +ve & -ve current
> picked up from the loco power collectors to the DCC socket in the tender.
> If you connect these direct to the motor instead of two of the four wires
> coming from the DCC socket that should circumvent the wiring in tender
> altogether.
>
> Another option thought might be to fit additional pick-ups to the tender
> and use some of the exiting wiring to transfer this back to the motor in
> the loco.
>
> John.
>

Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender
for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I
must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having
pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are
'over-engineered'?

Ian J.

John,

>... the mini-plug which carries just two wires is transferring +ve & -ve current
> picked up from the loco power collectors to the DCC socket in the tender.

As far as I can see, there are two identical miniplugs, each with two
wires; one red and one black.

As someone has pointed out elsewhere, it would be wise to mark which
is which because putting them back in the wrong locations could be
disasterous if the tender is fitted with a DCC chip.

Regards,
John Isherwood.

"John Turner" wrote

> I think this follows standard Bachmann USA practice, in which case the
> mini-plug which carries just two wires is transferring +ve & -ve current
> picked up from the loco power collectors to the DCC socket in the tender.
> If you connect these direct to the motor instead of two of the four wires
> coming from the DCC socket that should circumvent the wiring in tender
> altogether.

I've since checked and it seems that both sockets only carry two wires,
which of course negates my earlier suggestion - sorry!

John.

"Ian J." wrote

> Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender
> for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I
> must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having
> pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are
> 'over-engineered'?

I'd be inclined to suggest that the pick-ups on Hornby tender locos are
UNDER-engineered, and that the tender pick-ups are necessary. Certainly
they run *much* better when the tender is attached.

John.

<manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185458038.728174.143630@g12g2000prg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jul 26, 12:52 pm, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is
>> too!
>>
>> As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as
>> delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done
>> Bachmann.
>>
>> Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires
>> linking loco to tender, (via some *very* nice micro plugs and
>> sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender.
>>
>> As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and
>> since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco -
>> tender wiring.
>>
>> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
>> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
>> which can be dispensed with?
>>
>
> No, no one can, not without knowing where they are connected, since
> DCC uses red and black for track pickup and orange and grey for the
> motor, so Bachmann didn't do a very good job here.
>
> If there's a standard DCC socket in the tender then you can work out
> the connections from RP-9.1.1:
>
> http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/st...rps/rp911.html

According to Bachmann's catalogue, it's an "8-pin" socket!

This presumably rules out any sound-fitted version in the future?

(kim)

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in
news:13ai54r87rl5d2e@news.supernews.com:

> Another option thought might be to fit additional pick-ups to the
> tender and use some of the exiting wiring to transfer this back to the
> motor in the loco.

Something I'd echo. As a matter of course all my locos have all wheel pick-
ups (including tenders) and having so modified them (where necessary) I
haven't half seen an improvement in running.

Likewise the "engineers train" I'm currently building has all wheel pick-
ups through-out its length and will have a plug and socket arrangement for
connecting with the loco.

In my book you can never have enough pick-ups - especially as in my case
the layout is in a very dirty garage and my longest (regular) train only
has 6 carriages on a tender loco the additional drag doesn't factor in at
all.

--
All the best,

Chris Wilson

email to cwilson at britwar dor co dot uk, reply address is spamtrapped.
http://www.the-dormouse.org The Dormouse Line model railway

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:13ajp5jr02ac13c@news.supernews.com...
> "Ian J." wrote
>
>> Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender
>> for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I
>> must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having
>> pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are
>> 'over-engineered'?
>
> I'd be inclined to suggest that the pick-ups on Hornby tender locos are
> UNDER-engineered, and that the tender pick-ups are necessary. Certainly
> they run *much* better when the tender is attached.
>
> John.
>
Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually
touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at
least double the number of contact points.

Cheers,
Simon

Of the 3 yes it should be 1 on side and 2 on the other but if you have sharp
curves and high speed trains then it doesnt have to be.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:11:21 +0100, "simon" <simon@nospam.com> wrote:

>
>"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>news:13ajp5jr02ac13c@news.supernews.com...
>> "Ian J." wrote
>>
>>> Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender
>>> for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I
>>> must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having
>>> pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are
>>> 'over-engineered'?
>>
>> I'd be inclined to suggest that the pick-ups on Hornby tender locos are
>> UNDER-engineered, and that the tender pick-ups are necessary. Certainly
>> they run *much* better when the tender is attached.
>>
>> John.
>>
>Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
>One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
>current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually
>touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at
>least double the number of contact points.

It extends the flexible wheelbase so you will always have at least two
wheels on each side picking up current.
>Cheers,
>Simon
>
>Of the 3 yes it should be 1 on side and 2 on the other but if you have sharp
>curves and high speed trains then it doesnt have to be.
>

simon wrote:
>
> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:13ajp5jr02ac13c@news.supernews.com...
> > "Ian J." wrote
> >
> >> Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender
> >> for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I
> >> must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having
> >> pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are
> >> 'over-engineered'?
> >
> > I'd be inclined to suggest that the pick-ups on Hornby tender locos are
> > UNDER-engineered, and that the tender pick-ups are necessary. Certainly
> > they run *much* better when the tender is attached.
> >
> > John.
> >
> Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
> One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
> current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually
> touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at
> least double the number of contact points.

Given 3 wheels touching on any given loco, one will be on one rail, two
on the other. That gives us a loco dependant on a single pickup point
for traction current! Dead frog turnouts almost guarentee the loco will
stall at shunting speeds. A rocking axle or suspension doubles that to
two, which by my reckoning gives a decent chance for a loco to pass dead
frogs IF wheels and rails are clean.
A rigid loco and a rigid tender with pickup gives us between 2-4 or 3-3
pickup points. That still leaves us relying totally on _2_ pickup points
for traction current, which given the average model railway environment
is something of a gamble!

Greg.P.

"simon" wrote

> Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
> One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
> current is collected.

Indeed, which is why I suggested to John Isherwood that he might use ALL of
the wiring provided with the Bachmann Ivatt to add pick-ups to the tender.

I've no experience with Bachmann 'kettles' of this being necessary, but it
might potentially produce better running, whereas there have been any number
of instances with recent Hornby locos which I've tested prior to sale that
have very definitely NEEDED the tender to be attached to get optimum
performance.

That's all I'm saying, but have you seen the way some of the pick-ups are
fitted to Hornby locos? They rely on the chassis keeper plate to hold them
in place. Remove the keeper plate & they literally fall off.

John.

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:13alskmt42tgh10@news.supernews.com...
> "simon" wrote
>
>> Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
>> One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
>> current is collected.
>
> Indeed, which is why I suggested to John Isherwood that he might use ALL
> of the wiring provided with the Bachmann Ivatt to add pick-ups to the
> tender.
>
> I've no experience with Bachmann 'kettles' of this being necessary, but it
> might potentially produce better running, whereas there have been any
> number of instances with recent Hornby locos which I've tested prior to
> sale that have very definitely NEEDED the tender to be attached to get
> optimum performance.
>
> That's all I'm saying, but have you seen the way some of the pick-ups are
> fitted to Hornby locos? They rely on the chassis keeper plate to hold
> them in place. Remove the keeper plate & they literally fall off.
>
> John.
>

Funny that. In my experience you're absolutely right. What's even more weird
is that I have Hornby MNs that have sprung rear axles, yet they still need
the tender for optimum pick up, but the Bachmann tender locos don't have
such a problem. What are Bachmann doing right that Hornby are doing wrong,
when Hornby's approach *appears* to be correct? (that was a rhetorical
question, btw)

Ian J.

simon wrote:

>>
> Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
> One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
> current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually
> touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at
> least double the number of contact points.
>
Surely a case of the more the merrier. It is not just the overall length
of the pick-ups but the number of them. Logic should also say that the
so called "3 points of contact" is a minimum. The odds are that there
will be more than 3 in contact. So an 0-6-0 tender loco could possibly
have 12 wheel pick-up and would most unlikely stall compared to a sister
model with only 6.

Kevin Martin

--
To Reply, delete what is "Not Required" in abbreviated form

On 26 Jul, 12:52, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is
> too!
>
> As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as
> delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done
> Bachmann.
>
> Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires
> linking loco to tender, (via some *very* nice micro plugs and
> sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender.
>
> As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and
> since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco -
> tender wiring.
>
> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
> which can be dispensed with?
>
> Thanks in anticipation,
> John Isherwood.

I'm afraid you can't dispense with either of those two wires. They
aren't anything to do with DCC - cut them and the loco simply won't
work, as it provides the pickups from the tender to the motor.

John

John.

> I'm afraid you can't dispense with either of those two wires. They
> aren't anything to do with DCC - cut them and the loco simply won't
> work, as it provides the pickups from the tender to the motor.

You can - just did it.

Remove the axle keeper-plate on the loco and unsolder the red and blue
wires from the pick-up strips; (noting which is red and which is
black.

Snip the other red and black wires which come from the motor where
they enter the insulating sleeve, strip the ends and solder these to
the pick-up strips instead. Reinstall the keeper-plate.

Remove the tender body and unscrew and dispense with the connecting
sockets and the PCB. Reassemble the tender.

Job done!

Regards,
John Isherwood.

"Kevin Martin" <kevinrailway@notreqdoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:46ab3f0f$0$26579$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.a u...
> simon wrote:
>
>>
> Surely a case of the more the merrier. It is not just the overall length
> of the pick-ups but the number of them. Logic should also say that the so
> called "3 points of contact" is a minimum. The odds are that there will be
> more than 3 in contact. So an 0-6-0 tender loco could possibly have 12
> wheel pick-up and would most unlikely stall compared to a sister model
> with only 6.
>
> Kevin Martin
>
> --
> To Reply, delete what is "Not Required" in abbreviated form

dont think so, unless wheels and track are an abolutely perfect fit then it
can only be three wheels per vehicle. Compare it with a 4 leg table on a
flat surface. Nearly everywhere you put it you can slide a thin piece of
paper under one leg.

Cheers,
Simon

> unsolder the red and blue ....

Should be red and black.

Duhhh!

Regards,
John.

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:13alskmt42tgh10@news.supernews.com...
> "simon" wrote
>
>> Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.

Sorry, these were non sequetur statements should have been a gap !

>> One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
>> current is collected.
>
> Indeed, which is why I suggested to John Isherwood that he might use ALL
> of the wiring provided with the Bachmann Ivatt to add pick-ups to the
> tender.
>
> I've no experience with Bachmann 'kettles' of this being necessary, but it
> might potentially produce better running, whereas there have been any
> number of instances with recent Hornby locos which I've tested prior to
> sale that have very definitely NEEDED the tender to be attached to get
> optimum performance.
>
> That's all I'm saying, but have you seen the way some of the pick-ups are
> fitted to Hornby locos? They rely on the chassis keeper plate to hold
> them in place. Remove the keeper plate & they literally fall off.
>
> John.
I will admit theres a tendancy for hornby locos to require contacts
re-sited - ie push in a bit. Have had to do it to odd bachmann one as well -
but got lots less of them.
My new bachmann Fairburn tank runs now have bent one of drain pipes up a
bit. Noticed wheel B2B varies considerably in drivers from front to back -
explains why it sounds a bit heavy bouncing through points.
Perhaps the bounce cleans the track so thats why they seem to need fewer
pickups ?

Cheers,
Simon

"Ian J." <leftfield42@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46ab08c6$0$1599$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:13alskmt42tgh10@news.supernews.com...
>> "simon" wrote
>>
>>> Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
>>> One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over
>>> which current is collected.
>>
>> Indeed, which is why I suggested to John Isherwood that he might use ALL
>> of the wiring provided with the Bachmann Ivatt to add pick-ups to the
>> tender.
>>
>> I've no experience with Bachmann 'kettles' of this being necessary, but
>> it might potentially produce better running, whereas there have been any
>> number of instances with recent Hornby locos which I've tested prior to
>> sale that have very definitely NEEDED the tender to be attached to get
>> optimum performance.
>>
>> That's all I'm saying, but have you seen the way some of the pick-ups are
>> fitted to Hornby locos? They rely on the chassis keeper plate to hold
>> them in place. Remove the keeper plate & they literally fall off.
>>
>> John.
>>
>
> Funny that. In my experience you're absolutely right. What's even more
> weird is that I have Hornby MNs that have sprung rear axles, yet they
> still need the tender for optimum pick up, but the Bachmann tender locos
> don't have such a problem. What are Bachmann doing right that Hornby are
> doing wrong, when Hornby's approach *appears* to be correct? (that was a
> rhetorical question, btw)
>
> Ian J.
Always worth while doing a quick check that pickups clean esp paint free and
do touch where they should.

Cheers,
Simon

"simon" wrote

> Always worth while doing a quick check that pickups clean esp paint free
> and do touch where they should.

Agreed absolutely, but the first time I attempted to adjust the pick-ups (on
a Black 5 from memory) I wanted ease of access to allow me to bend three (of
six) into more reliable contact with the back of the wheel, and when I
removed the keeper plate the pick-ups from both sides of the chassis just
fell away. They're not 'fixed' in the accepted sense, but rely on the
keeper plate to hold them in position against a brass shim which has the
wires attached which run to the motor.

I was a bugger of a job to position to position and refit the two sets of
pick-ups and hold the whole shooting match in place whilst the keeper plate
was screwed into position. Further adjustment is practically impossible.
Not a very clever design in my opinion, and it's possible that those in the
factory who have to assemble this rig, may not get the positioning spot on
with consequent indifferent running until the tender is attached.

John.

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:13apn7er1cohjdd@news.supernews.com...
>
> "simon" wrote
>
>> Always worth while doing a quick check that pickups clean esp paint free
>> and do touch where they should.
>
> Agreed absolutely, but the first time I attempted to adjust the pick-ups
> (on a Black 5 from memory) I wanted ease of access to allow me to bend
> three (of six) into more reliable contact with the back of the wheel, and
> when I removed the keeper plate the pick-ups from both sides of the
> chassis just fell away. They're not 'fixed' in the accepted sense, but
> rely on the keeper plate to hold them in position against a brass shim
> which has the wires attached which run to the motor.
>
> I was a bugger of a job to position to position and refit the two sets of
> pick-ups and hold the whole shooting match in place whilst the keeper
> plate was screwed into position. Further adjustment is practically
> impossible. Not a very clever design in my opinion, and it's possible that
> those in the factory who have to assemble this rig, may not get the
> positioning spot on with consequent indifferent running until the tender
> is attached.
>
> John.
Was wondering why you removed the keeper plate, have never done that cos of
pickups. When have been thoroughly fed up with the 6 handed job of putting
it back have resorted to the thin tape or even a tiny spot of super glue.

CHeers,
Simon

"simon" wrote

> Was wondering why you removed the keeper plate, have never done that cos
> of pickups.

It's difficult to accurately 'bend' a wiper pick-up when in situ behind a
wheel. My intention was to move it away from the wheel, adjust it and then
reposition - a system I've used for donkey's years, and one I still use
occasionally with Bachmann locos.

> When have been thoroughly fed up with the 6 handed job of putting it back
> have resorted to the thin tape or even a tiny spot of super glue.

Yup, but not so easy with Hornby pick-ups as both are effective insulators,
and in this scenario electrical continuity relies on the physical contact
between pick-up and the small shim under the keeper plate.

John.

On Jul 28, 9:27 pm, jrudd...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 26 Jul, 12:52, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is
> > too!
>
> > As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as
> > delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done
> > Bachmann.
>
> > Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires
> > linking loco to tender, (via some *very* nice micro plugs and
> > sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender.
>
> > As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and
> > since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco -
> > tender wiring.
>
> > There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC
> > expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and
> > which can be dispensed with?
>
> > Thanks in anticipation,
> > John Isherwood.
>
> I'm afraid you can't dispense with either of those two wires. They
> aren't anything to do with DCC - cut them and the loco simply won't
> work, as it provides the pickups from the tender to the motor.

Why would you need *four* wires for tender pickup?

MBQ

On Jul 28, 2:05 pm, Kevin Martin <kevinrail...@notreqdoptusnet.com.au>
wrote:
> simon wrote:
>
> > Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement.
> > One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which
> > current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually
> > touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at
> > least double the number of contact points.
>
> Surely a case of the more the merrier. It is not just the overall length
> of the pick-ups but the number of them. Logic should also say that the
> so called "3 points of contact" is a minimum. The odds are that there
> will be more than 3 in contact. So an 0-6-0 tender loco could possibly
> have 12 wheel pick-up and would most unlikely stall

It's very unlikely you'll get anything like 12 on a mass-produced
rigid chassis RTR loco and tender.

MBQ

"manatbandq@hotmail.com" <manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 26 Jul, 12:52, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four
>> > wires linking loco to tender, (via some *very* nice micro plugs and
>> > sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender.
>>
> Why would you need *four* wires for tender pickup?

See above.

--
Martin S.

"manatbandq@hotmail.com" <manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Kevin Martin <kevinrail...@notreqdoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> simon wrote:
>>
>> > Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined
>> > statement. One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra
>> > length over which current is collected. But as theres a max of 3
>> > wheels per vehicle actually touching the rails in a non suspension
>> > vehicle then tender pickups will at least double the number of
>> > contact points.
>>
>> Surely a case of the more the merrier. It is not just the overall
>> length of the pick-ups but the number of them. Logic should also say
>> that the so called "3 points of contact" is a minimum. The odds are
>> that there will be more than 3 in contact. So an 0-6-0 tender loco
>> could possibly have 12 wheel pick-up and would most unlikely stall
>
> It's very unlikely you'll get anything like 12 on a mass-produced
> rigid chassis RTR loco and tender.

You're assuming there is no flex in the track, and no play in the wheel
bearings. A wheel that does not have its tread on the rail may still make
contact through the flange, espcially on a curve. Coupled driving wheels
are also electrically connected by the coupling rods.

--
Martin S.

"MartinS" <me@my.place> wrote in message
news:46ae3b00$0$97247$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readf reenews.net...
> "manatbandq@hotmail.com" <manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Kevin Martin <kevinrail...@notreqdoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>> simon wrote:
>>>
>>> > Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined
>>> > statement. One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra
>>> > length over which current is collected. But as theres a max of 3
>>> > wheels per vehicle actually touching the rails in a non suspension
>>> > vehicle then tender pickups will at least double the number of
>>> > contact points.
>>>
>>> Surely a case of the more the merrier. It is not just the overall
>>> length of the pick-ups but the number of them. Logic should also say
>>> that the so called "3 points of contact" is a minimum. The odds are
>>> that there will be more than 3 in contact. So an 0-6-0 tender loco
>>> could possibly have 12 wheel pick-up and would most unlikely stall
>>
>> It's very unlikely you'll get anything like 12 on a mass-produced
>> rigid chassis RTR loco and tender.
>
> You're assuming there is no flex in the track, and no play in the wheel
> bearings. A wheel that does not have its tread on the rail may still make
> contact through the flange, espcially on a curve. Coupled driving wheels
> are also electrically connected by the coupling rods.

Not if they are insulated. have to be carefull with some wheel makes
otherwise you get shorts via coupling rods.

Dont forget wheels are connected via coupling rods to adjacent wheel but
also via a solid axle to their partner. So flex and play can lower one side
but raise the other. Suspect its a 3 dimensional thingy. Thats why said you
need a perfect fit not perfectly flat track and wheels.

>
> --
> Martin S.

Cheers,
Simon

"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:13aq8ii5is2m8d2@news.supernews.com...
>
> "simon" wrote
>
>> Was wondering why you removed the keeper plate, have never done that cos
>> of pickups.
>
> It's difficult to accurately 'bend' a wiper pick-up when in situ behind a
> wheel. My intention was to move it away from the wheel, adjust it and
> then reposition - a system I've used for donkey's years, and one I still
> use occasionally with Bachmann locos.
>
>> When have been thoroughly fed up with the 6 handed job of putting it back
>> have resorted to the thin tape or even a tiny spot of super glue.
>
> Yup, but not so easy with Hornby pick-ups as both are effective
> insulators, and in this scenario electrical continuity relies on the
> physical contact between pick-up and the small shim under the keeper
> plate.
>
> John.
Appreciate thats the case with the older locos with less flexible pickups
and your method is the perfect one. Butt modern ones with phos..bronze tend
to be better sprung with a knob near the end. Find they can be pressed
closer to the wheel and with the wheel at its outermost position it is less
critical that they be perfect. Tis very important to clean that knob though.

Cheers,
Simon

"simon" <simon@nospam.com> wrote:
> "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote...
>> "simon" wrote
>>
>>> Was wondering why you removed the keeper plate, have never done that
>>> cos of pickups.
>>
>> It's difficult to accurately 'bend' a wiper pick-up when in situ
>> behind a wheel. My intention was to move it away from the wheel,
>> adjust it and then reposition - a system I've used for donkey's
>> years, and one I still use occasionally with Bachmann locos.
>>
>>> When have been thoroughly fed up with the 6 handed job of putting it
>>> back have resorted to the thin tape or even a tiny spot of super
>>> glue.
>>
>> Yup, but not so easy with Hornby pick-ups as both are effective
>> insulators, and in this scenario electrical continuity relies on the
>> physical contact between pick-up and the small shim under the keeper
>> plate.
>><

	#1
cctransuk	Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is too! As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done Bachmann. Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires linking loco to tender, (via some very nice micro plugs and sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender. As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco - tender wiring. There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and which can be dispensed with? Thanks in anticipation, John Isherwood.

	#2
manatbandq@hotmail.com	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC On Jul 26, 12:52 pm, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is > too! > > As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as > delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done > Bachmann. > > Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires > linking loco to tender, (via some very nice micro plugs and > sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender. > > As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and > since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco - > tender wiring. > > There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC > expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and > which can be dispensed with? > No, no one can, not without knowing where they are connected, since DCC uses red and black for track pickup and orange and grey for the motor, so Bachmann didn't do a very good job here. If there's a standard DCC socket in the tender then you can work out the connections from RP-9.1.1: http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/st...rps/rp911.html MBQ

	#4
simon	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC <manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1185458038.728174.143630@g12g2000prg.googlegr oups.com... > On Jul 26, 12:52 pm, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is >> too! >> >> As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as >> delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done >> Bachmann. >> >> Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires >> linking loco to tender, (via some very nice micro plugs and >> sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender. >> >> As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and >> since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco - >> tender wiring. >> >> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC >> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and >> which can be dispensed with? >> > > No, no one can, not without knowing where they are connected, since > DCC uses red and black for track pickup and orange and grey for the > motor, so Bachmann didn't do a very good job here. > > If there's a standard DCC socket in the tender then you can work out > the connections from RP-9.1.1: > > http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/st...rps/rp911.html > > MBQ > Do they not just refer to the chip connectors. What is used everywhere else is not defined - true it would be nice though. Presume they are 2 from the track pickups and 2 for the motor so they just want connecting to each other. Simple, cut all then use a meter connected between one side of wheels and test each wire in turn. Repeat for the other side. That gives the 2 pickups. Connect each to one of the remaning wires and see if loco goes the usual direction and swap if dont. Cheers, Simon

	#5
John Turner	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC "cctransuk" wrote > There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC > expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and > which can be dispensed with? I think this follows standard Bachmann USA practice, in which case the mini-plug which carries just two wires is transferring +ve & -ve current picked up from the loco power collectors to the DCC socket in the tender. If you connect these direct to the motor instead of two of the four wires coming from the DCC socket that should circumvent the wiring in tender altogether. Another option thought might be to fit additional pick-ups to the tender and use some of the exiting wiring to transfer this back to the motor in the loco. John.

	#6
Ian J.	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message news:13ai54r87rl5d2e@news.supernews.com... > > "cctransuk" wrote > >> There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC >> expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and >> which can be dispensed with? > > I think this follows standard Bachmann USA practice, in which case the > mini-plug which carries just two wires is transferring +ve & -ve current > picked up from the loco power collectors to the DCC socket in the tender. > If you connect these direct to the motor instead of two of the four wires > coming from the DCC socket that should circumvent the wiring in tender > altogether. > > Another option thought might be to fit additional pick-ups to the tender > and use some of the exiting wiring to transfer this back to the motor in > the loco. > > John. > Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are 'over-engineered'? Ian J.

	#11
Chris Wilson	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:13ai54r87rl5d2e@news.supernews.com: > Another option thought might be to fit additional pick-ups to the > tender and use some of the exiting wiring to transfer this back to the > motor in the loco. Something I'd echo. As a matter of course all my locos have all wheel pick- ups (including tenders) and having so modified them (where necessary) I haven't half seen an improvement in running. Likewise the "engineers train" I'm currently building has all wheel pick- ups through-out its length and will have a plug and socket arrangement for connecting with the loco. In my book you can never have enough pick-ups - especially as in my case the layout is in a very dirty garage and my longest (regular) train only has 6 carriages on a tender loco the additional drag doesn't factor in at all. -- All the best, Chris Wilson email to cwilson at britwar dor co dot uk, reply address is spamtrapped. http://www.the-dormouse.org The Dormouse Line model railway

	#13
Christopher A.Lee	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:11:21 +0100, "simon" <simon@nospam.com> wrote: > >"John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message >news:13ajp5jr02ac13c@news.supernews.com... >> "Ian J." wrote >> >>> Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender >>> for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I >>> must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having >>> pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are >>> 'over-engineered'? >> >> I'd be inclined to suggest that the pick-ups on Hornby tender locos are >> UNDER-engineered, and that the tender pick-ups are necessary. Certainly >> they run much better when the tender is attached. >> >> John. >> >Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement. >One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which >current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually >touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at >least double the number of contact points. It extends the flexible wheelbase so you will always have at least two wheels on each side picking up current. >Cheers, >Simon > >Of the 3 yes it should be 1 on side and 2 on the other but if you have sharp >curves and high speed trains then it doesnt have to be. >

	#14
Greg Procter	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC simon wrote: > > "John Turner" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message > news:13ajp5jr02ac13c@news.supernews.com... > > "Ian J." wrote > > > >> Which makes me think - Hornby have successfully had pickups on the tender > >> for some time now, but Bachmann seem to have chosen not to follow suit. I > >> must admit I've rarely had any issues with Bachmann tender locos having > >> pickup trouble, so is it just a case that Hornby's tender locos are > >> 'over-engineered'? > > > > I'd be inclined to suggest that the pick-ups on Hornby tender locos are > > UNDER-engineered, and that the tender pick-ups are necessary. Certainly > > they run much better when the tender is attached. > > > > John. > > > Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement. > One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which > current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually > touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at > least double the number of contact points. Given 3 wheels touching on any given loco, one will be on one rail, two on the other. That gives us a loco dependant on a single pickup point for traction current! Dead frog turnouts almost guarentee the loco will stall at shunting speeds. A rocking axle or suspension doubles that to two, which by my reckoning gives a decent chance for a loco to pass dead frogs IF wheels and rails are clean. A rigid loco and a rigid tender with pickup gives us between 2-4 or 3-3 pickup points. That still leaves us relying totally on _2_ pickup points for traction current, which given the average model railway environment is something of a gamble! Greg.P.

	#17
Kevin Martin	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC simon wrote: >> > Suprisingly I'm not really in agreement with your inclined statement. > One of the main benefits of tender pickups is the extra length over which > current is collected. But as theres a max of 3 wheels per vehicle actually > touching the rails in a non suspension vehicle then tender pickups will at > least double the number of contact points. > Surely a case of the more the merrier. It is not just the overall length of the pick-ups but the number of them. Logic should also say that the so called "3 points of contact" is a minimum. The odds are that there will be more than 3 in contact. So an 0-6-0 tender loco could possibly have 12 wheel pick-up and would most unlikely stall compared to a sister model with only 6. Kevin Martin -- To Reply, delete what is "Not Required" in abbreviated form

	#18
jruddy99@googlemail.com	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC On 26 Jul, 12:52, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I have just received my Bachmann Mickey Mouse, and very nice it is > too! > > As noted in the model press, the loco / tender gap is huge as > delivered,but a shorter tender coupling link is provided - well done > Bachmann. > > Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four wires > linking loco to tender, (via some very nice micro plugs and > sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender. > > As I have no intention of utilising DCC now or in the future, and > since there are no tender pick-ups, I can dispense with the loco - > tender wiring. > > There are two red wires and two black wires; can anyone with DCC > expertise tell me which wires should be joined within the loco and > which can be dispensed with? > > Thanks in anticipation, > John Isherwood. I'm afraid you can't dispense with either of those two wires. They aren't anything to do with DCC - cut them and the loco simply won't work, as it provides the pickups from the tender to the motor. John

	#29
MartinS	Re: Bachmann 2MT 2-6-0 and (not) DCC "manatbandq@hotmail.com" <manatbandq@hotmail.com> wrote: >> On 26 Jul, 12:52, cctransuk <cctr...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Also evident from the press photos are the very prominent four >> > wires linking loco to tender, (via some very nice micro plugs and >> > sockets), so that a DCC chip can be located in the tender. >> > Why would you need four wires for tender pickup? See above. -- Martin S.