Nogood Boyo

Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
bathroom at this time of year?

http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm

--
Nogood Boyo

Nick

- And on Wed, 7 Dec 2005 00:10:54 +0000, it was spake thus <pyHUaJJOiilDFw4V@ynystawe.demon.co.uk> said in message Nogood Boyo <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk>:

> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
> bathroom at this time of year?
>
> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm

I think you'll find that it's a fly of some sort - no don't ask me which.

I'm sure someone else'll be able to be more informative though... hopefully.
--
Nick in Northallerton
Also @ www.whelan.me.uk
And nickw7coc on
Yahoo & MSN
but I use http://www.trillian.cc as I like it better
also on Skype and Google talk

Peter Alaca

Nogood Boyo wrote: pyHUaJJOiilDFw4V@ynystawe.demon.co.uk,

> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
> bathroom at this time of year?
>
> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm

It is no bee but a Dronefly /Eristalis/ (tenax?)

--
º°º°º°º < Peter Alaca > º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°

Triffid

Nogood Boyo wrote:
> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
> bathroom at this time of year?
>
> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm
>

a) It's a kind of giant hoverfly
b) Shaving?

Nogood Boyo

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 at 11:40:20 in uk.rec.natural-history Triffid wrote:
>Nogood Boyo wrote:
>> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
>>bathroom at this time of year?
>> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm
>>
>
>a) It's a kind of giant hoverfly
>b) Shaving?

Thanks all. Which feature tells you that it isn't a bee..?

--
Nogood Boyo

Craven

"Nogood Boyo" <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ksb3dOA$+ulDFw4v@ynystawe.demon.co.uk...
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 at 11:40:20 in uk.rec.natural-history Triffid wrote:
>>Nogood Boyo wrote:
>>> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
>>> bathroom at this time of year?
>>> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm
>>>
>>
>>a) It's a kind of giant hoverfly
>>b) Shaving?
>
> Thanks all. Which feature tells you that it isn't a bee..?

The adult of Eristalis tenax (common name: Dronefly) in appearance bears a
close resemblance to a honeybee. The larva has a long thin tail. Thus it is
called a rat-tailed larva. It lives in stagnant water, farmyard drains, etc.
A female drone fly can lay 100 to 200 eggs (sometimes even more). It takes
about 15 days untill the larvae pupate. The adult hatches after another
10-15 days.


http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Eu.../photo4773.htm

Craven

ChrisR

Nogood Boyo wrote:
> Thanks all. Which feature tells you that it isn't a bee..?

Bees have 2 pairs of wings (genarally) hold them loosely along their
back at
rest - and bees (generally) have smaller sets of compound eyes. The Drone
flies have one large pair of wings which they hold out in a delta shape
and their
eyes usually fill the head. That on top of the fact the Drone fly just
looks mean
but can't sting ;-)

ChrisR

David Lee

ChrisR wrote...>> Thanks all. Which feature tells you that it isn't a
bee..?
>
> Bees have 2 pairs of wings

....linked together by Velcro! (Well small hooks - hamuli - on the leading
edge of the hind wing but it comes to the same thing!)

David

Keith Edkins

"Nogood Boyo" <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ksb3dOA$+ulDFw4v@ynystawe.demon.co.uk...
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 at 11:40:20 in uk.rec.natural-history Triffid wrote:
>>Nogood Boyo wrote:
>>> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
>>> bathroom at this time of year?
>>> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm
>>>
>>
>>a) It's a kind of giant hoverfly
>>b) Shaving?
>
> Thanks all. Which feature tells you that it isn't a bee..?
>

Experience. Out of season 'bees' are usually drone flies.

It isn't always easy to tell from a photo of an insect with folded back
wings whether it has 2 or 4 of them If you look at some typical bees, eg:
http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/insects/bees1.htm
http://www.gwydir.demon.co.uk/insects/bees2.htm
some secondary hints are that bees have quite long and thick antennae (drone
flies have practically none); bees have quite small eyes facing outward, DFs
have eyes covering the entire front of the head.

HTH

Keith

ned

"Nogood Boyo" <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
newsyHUaJJOiilDFw4V@ynystawe.demon.co.uk...
> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
> bathroom at this time of year?
>
> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm
>

Aren't you the lucky one, then.
I've been on the lookout for Eristalis tenax for ages and all that I
find are its near look-alike E. pertinax.
The differences are in the colour of the hind legs and the vertical
bar between the eyes, - E, pertinax has a narrow bar, E. tenax has a
broad bar.
E. pertinax pics at
http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk/hoverflies.html#ErisPert



They can be on the wing all year round and obviously prefer your nice
warm, humid bathroom to the cold and frost outdoors.

--
ned

http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk
last update 27.11.2005

Nogood Boyo

On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 at 21:09:27 in uk.rec.natural-history ned wrote:
>
>"Nogood Boyo" <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
>newsyHUaJJOiilDFw4V@ynystawe.demon.co.uk...
>> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in my
>> bathroom at this time of year?
>>
>> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm
>>
>
>Aren't you the lucky one, then.
>I've been on the lookout for Eristalis tenax for ages and all that I
>find are its near look-alike E. pertinax.
>The differences are in the colour of the hind legs and the vertical
>bar between the eyes, - E, pertinax has a narrow bar, E. tenax has a
>broad bar.
>E. pertinax pics at
>http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk/hoverflies.html#ErisPert
>
>
>
>They can be on the wing all year round and obviously prefer your nice
>warm, humid bathroom to the cold and frost outdoors.
>

If I'd known, I'd have kept it for you! I let it go after taking a pic.

Thanks again for all responses. I wonder why a fly apparently mimics a
bee at times of the year when bees aren't around...
--
Nogood Boyo

David Lee

Nogood Boyo wrote...
> Thanks again for all responses. I wonder why a fly apparently mimics a
> bee at times of the year when bees aren't around...

It's a bit stuck with its appearance by then! ;-)

David

ned

"Nogood Boyo" <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ZIF40dALHKmDFwF6@ynystawe.demon.co.uk...
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2005 at 21:09:27 in uk.rec.natural-history ned wrote:
> >
> >"Nogood Boyo" <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
> >newsyHUaJJOiilDFw4V@ynystawe.demon.co.uk...
> >> Can anyone please tell me what bee this is and what it's doing in
my
> >> bathroom at this time of year?
> >>
> >> http://www.abertawe.co.uk/pics/bee.htm
> >>
> >
> >Aren't you the lucky one, then.
> >I've been on the lookout for Eristalis tenax for ages and all that
I
> >find are its near look-alike E. pertinax.
> >The differences are in the colour of the hind legs and the vertical
> >bar between the eyes, - E, pertinax has a narrow bar, E. tenax has
a
> >broad bar.
> >E. pertinax pics at
> >http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk/hoverflies.html#ErisPert
> >
> >
> >
> >They can be on the wing all year round and obviously prefer your
nice
> >warm, humid bathroom to the cold and frost outdoors.
> >
>
> If I'd known, I'd have kept it for you! I let it go after taking a
pic.

Oh, I appreciate it that you let him go.
I only hope you pointed him in my direction. :-)

--
ned

http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk
last update 27.11.2005

Keith Edkins

"Nogood Boyo" <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ZIF40dALHKmDFwF6@ynystawe.demon.co.uk...


> Thanks again for all responses. I wonder why a fly apparently mimics a
> bee at times of the year when bees aren't around...

Presumably the mimicry is still effective even if real bees are temporarily
absent. By the time a potential predator has figured out that it can't be a
bee in December, it's had a chance to escape.

sarah

Nogood Boyo <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote:

[-]
> Thanks again for all responses. I wonder why a fly apparently mimics a
> bee at times of the year when bees aren't around...

There were bumblebees on my (homemade) bee feeders this morning, and
yesterday, too -- slightly strange when the frost is glittering in the
sun!

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Kate

"sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1h7be81.1i99cge16imwhcN%usenet@colddrake.co.u k...
> Nogood Boyo <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [-]
>> Thanks again for all responses. I wonder why a fly apparently
>> mimics a
>> bee at times of the year when bees aren't around...
>
> There were bumblebees on my (homemade) bee feeders this morning, and
> yesterday, too -- slightly strange when the frost is glittering in
> the
> sun!
>
> regards
> sarah
>
>
> --
> Think of it as evolution in action.

Homemade bee feeders? Sounds interesting. Could you describe it
please?

Kate

sarah

"Kate" <@*slamaspam*.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> "sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1h7be81.1i99cge16imwhcN%usenet@colddrake.co.u k...
> > Nogood Boyo <NogoodBoyo@bwllfa.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > [-]
> >> Thanks again for all responses. I wonder why a fly apparently
> >> mimics a
> >> bee at times of the year when bees aren't around...
> >
> > There were bumblebees on my (homemade) bee feeders this morning, and
> > yesterday, too -- slightly strange when the frost is glittering in
> > the sun!
> >
>
> Homemade bee feeders? Sounds interesting. Could you describe it
> please?

Of course :-) I'm quite proud of them, but didn't want to boast/describe
if no one was interested!

Acquire some small vials with plastic lids. I've seen some c. 1" high
and a bit narrower sold for use by travellers who want to travel with
small quantities of unguents or something. You'll also need some
'normal' (ie not set) English (to avoid disease transmission,
apparently) honey or a very, very thick sugar/water syrup -- sugar just
moistened with water might do.

Use a heated fine sewing needle to melt a small hole or two through the
lid quite close to the rim. Don't drill another hole at the other side
to allow air in; if you do that the honey will run out of the hole. Put
a couple of tsp of honey in the jar and set it up somewhere sunny: a
tree or shrub that attracts bees and is still in flower is ideal,
although if bees can smell honey (as a bee-keeping friend tells me),
they should be able to find the feeders anywhere eventually. I fasten
the jars to small branches of an arbutus in such a way that the holes
are at the lowest point with the vials gently tilted. The bees can rest
on a branch/leaves while feeding (the plastic lids are slippery; I
should roughen them).

I have seen two/three bees (I think B. terrestris) at a time on the
two-hole feeder, with others waiting. The odd fly and wasps, of course,
earlier in the year.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

David Lee

sarah wrote...
>> Homemade bee feeders? Sounds interesting. Could you describe it
>> please?
>
> Of course :-) I'm quite proud of them, but didn't want to boast/describe
> if no one was interested!

Don't be daft - you should boast away cos I'm sure we are all interested!

> ... <Description> ...

I don't know whether it would have any effect on bees but I know that moths
can't resist red wine. Mix cheap plonk with your treacle or what-ever and
they'll turn up with all their friends and relations!

You can soak ropes in it or just paint it on trees or fence posts etc.

May be worth trying to see if a wine mixture is more attractive to bees than
honey on its own.

David

Kate

"sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1h7ckis.1g13rih1avv0v7N%usenet@colddrake.co.u k...
> "Kate" <@*slamaspam*.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1h7be81.1i99cge16imwhcN%usenet@colddrake.co.u k...
>> Homemade bee feeders? Sounds interesting. Could you describe it
>> please?
>
> Of course :-) I'm quite proud of them, but didn't want to
> boast/describe if no one was interested!
>
> Acquire some small vials with plastic lids. I've seen some c. 1"
> high and a bit narrower sold for use by travellers who want to
> travel with small quantities of unguents or something. You'll also
> need some 'normal' (ie not set) English (to avoid disease
> transmission, apparently) honey or a very, very thick
> sugar/water syrup -- sugar just moistened with water might do.
>
> Use a heated fine sewing needle to melt a small hole or two through
> the lid quite close to the rim. Don't drill another hole at the
> other side to allow air in; if you do that the honey will run out of
> the hole. Put a couple of tsp of honey in the jar and set it up
> somewhere sunny: a tree or shrub that attracts bees and is still in
> flower is ideal, although if bees can smell honey (as a bee-keeping
> friend tells me), they should be able to find the feeders anywhere
> eventually. I fasten the jars to small branches of an arbutus in
> such a way that the holes are at the lowest point with the vials
> gently tilted. The bees can rest on a branch/leaves while feeding
> (the plastic lids are slippery; I should roughen them).
>
> I have seen two/three bees (I think B. terrestris) at a time on the
> two-hole feeder, with others waiting. The odd fly and wasps, of
> course, earlier in the year.
>
> regards
> sarah
>
Sounds simple enough. Thanks. It looks as though our Mahonia
Japonica will be in bloom before too long. Last year queen Bumbles
visited it quite often, so that might be a good place to try the
feeder(s) out. Pity they won`t attract hummingbirds...

Kate

Triffid

Kate wrote:
> "sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1h7ckis.1g13rih1avv0v7N%usenet@colddrake.co.u k...
>
>>"Kate" <@*slamaspam*.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>news:1h7be81.1i99cge16imwhcN%usenet@colddrake.c o.uk...
>>>Homemade bee feeders? Sounds interesting. Could you describe it
>>>please?
>>
>>Of course :-) I'm quite proud of them, but didn't want to
>>boast/describe if no one was interested!
>>
>>Acquire some small vials with plastic lids. I've seen some c. 1"
>>high and a bit narrower sold for use by travellers who want to
>>travel with small quantities of unguents or something. You'll also
>>need some 'normal' (ie not set) English (to avoid disease
>>transmission, apparently) honey or a very, very thick
>>sugar/water syrup -- sugar just moistened with water might do.
>>
>>Use a heated fine sewing needle to melt a small hole or two through
>>the lid quite close to the rim. Don't drill another hole at the
>>other side to allow air in; if you do that the honey will run out of
>>the hole. Put a couple of tsp of honey in the jar and set it up
>>somewhere sunny: a tree or shrub that attracts bees and is still in
>>flower is ideal, although if bees can smell honey (as a bee-keeping
>>friend tells me), they should be able to find the feeders anywhere
>>eventually. I fasten the jars to small branches of an arbutus in
>>such a way that the holes are at the lowest point with the vials
>>gently tilted. The bees can rest on a branch/leaves while feeding
>>(the plastic lids are slippery; I should roughen them).
>>
>>I have seen two/three bees (I think B. terrestris) at a time on the
>>two-hole feeder, with others waiting. The odd fly and wasps, of
>>course, earlier in the year.
>>
>>regards
>>sarah
>>
>
> Sounds simple enough. Thanks. It looks as though our Mahonia
> Japonica will be in bloom before too long. Last year queen Bumbles
> visited it quite often, so that might be a good place to try the
> feeder(s) out. Pity they won`t attract hummingbirds...
>

Great idea. I'll try that. Perhaps stick an (empty!) tea bag over the
lid so they can hold on?

sarah

David Lee <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> wrote:

> sarah wrote...
> >> Homemade bee feeders? Sounds interesting. Could you describe it
> >> please?
> >
> > Of course :-) I'm quite proud of them, but didn't want to boast/describe
> > if no one was interested!
>
> Don't be daft - you should boast away cos I'm sure we are all interested!
>
> > ... <Description> ...
>
> I don't know whether it would have any effect on bees but I know that moths
> can't resist red wine. Mix cheap plonk with your treacle or what-ever and
> they'll turn up with all their friends and relations!
>
> You can soak ropes in it or just paint it on trees or fence posts etc.
>
> May be worth trying to see if a wine mixture is more attractive to bees than
> honey on its own.

IANAE but I think moths/butterflies are attracted to the alcohol because
they feed on rotting fruit. I've never noticed bees on fallen fruit
(unlike wasps!), so they may not be interested in the smell. I'd really
hate to attract wasps rather than bees, although I'd welcome hornets. I
like to *think* I'd welcome hornets, but I think I hope I'm not put to
the test!

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

sarah

Triffid <spamme@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Kate wrote:
> > "sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:1h7ckis.1g13rih1avv0v7N%usenet@colddrake.co.u k...
> >
> >>"Kate" <@*slamaspam*.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"sarah" <usenet@colddrake.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>>news:1h7be81.1i99cge16imwhcN%usenet@colddrake.c o.uk...
> >>>Homemade bee feeders? Sounds interesting. Could you describe it
> >>>please?
> >>
> >>Of course :-) I'm quite proud of them, but didn't want to
> >>boast/describe if no one was interested!
> >>
> >>Acquire some small vials with plastic lids. I've seen some c. 1"
> >>high and a bit narrower sold for use by travellers who want to
> >>travel with small quantities of unguents or something. You'll also
> >>need some 'normal' (ie not set) English (to avoid disease
> >>transmission, apparently) honey or a very, very thick
> >>sugar/water syrup -- sugar just moistened with water might do.
> >>
> >>Use a heated fine sewing needle to melt a small hole or two through
> >>the lid quite close to the rim. Don't drill another hole at the
> >>other side to allow air in; if you do that the honey will run out of
> >>the hole. Put a couple of tsp of honey in the jar and set it up
> >>somewhere sunny: a tree or shrub that attracts bees and is still in
> >>flower is ideal, although if bees can smell honey (as a bee-keeping
> >>friend tells me), they should be able to find the feeders anywhere
> >>eventually. I fasten the jars to small branches of an arbutus in
> >>such a way that the holes are at the lowest point with the vials
> >>gently tilted. The bees can rest on a branch/leaves while feeding
> >>(the plastic lids are slippery; I should roughen them).
> >>
> >>I have seen two/three bees (I think B. terrestris) at a time on the
> >>two-hole feeder, with others waiting. The odd fly and wasps, of
> >>course, earlier in the year.
> >
> > Sounds simple enough. Thanks. It looks as though our Mahonia
> > Japonica will be in bloom before too long. Last year queen Bumbles
> > visited it quite often, so that might be a good place to try the
> > feeder(s) out. Pity they won`t attract hummingbirds...

It is, isn't it? Speaking as a Canadian who's seen hummingbirds in the
wild :-)

> Great idea. I'll try that. Perhaps stick an (empty!) tea bag over the
> lid so they can hold on?

Alternatively just scratch it with a nail or sharp knife to add texture.
While I was washing the dishes an hour ago there were at least four
(counted at the same time) and possibly many more bees on the feeders.
There are some interesting interactions, too; I think size determines
who gets priority, but I'm not certain. I could start marking them with
whatever the fashionable technique is this year -- I think it used to be
dabs of nail polish -- and paying more attention. Even better, learn to
use the macro on my digital camera and take pictures to identify the
bees properly!

Instead I was wondering what effect bees being active through the winter
might have on other bees. They seem to learn the location of food
sources and return to them; will overwintering bees occupy food sources
or otherwise reduce food availability (natural, not honeypots :-) that
might be needed by queens waking in the spring?

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Peter Alaca

sarah wrote: 1h7d8tp.ip1lgpxszkyN%usenet@colddrake.co.uk,


>[...]
> I'd really hate to attract wasps rather than bees, although I'd
> welcome hornets. I like to *think* I'd welcome hornets, but I think I
> hope I'm not put to the test!

Why not? They are impressive and beautifu,
l and I never had any trouble with them, not
even very, very close to the nest.

--
º°º°º°º < Peter Alaca > º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°

sarah

Peter Alaca <P.Alaca@6125.nn> wrote:

> sarah wrote: 1h7d8tp.ip1lgpxszkyN%usenet@colddrake.co.uk,
>
>
> >[...]
> > I'd really hate to attract wasps rather than bees, although I'd
> > welcome hornets. I like to *think* I'd welcome hornets, but I think I
> > hope I'm not put to the test!
>
> Why not? They are impressive and beautifu,
> l and I never had any trouble with them, not
> even very, very close to the nest.

Hornets or wasps? Wasps have inflicted considerable pain on me, never
when I'd consciously done anything to deserve it.

I've only seen hornets once, they're not common around here (yet). A
couple of summers ago a nest some miles away (viewed through a perspex
window) became a popular attraction. I was fascinated, but very aware
that they could be extremely dangerous if annoyed -- and as I'd never
set out to annoy the wasps that have stung me I'd be worried if hornets
were as short-tempered. Mind you, they're large enough I might notice if
one landed on my collar. <shudder>

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Peter Alaca

sarah wrote: 1h7etth.13mlppd18imh6nN%usenet@colddrake.co.uk,

> Peter Alaca <P.Alaca@6125.nn> wrote:
>
>> sarah wrote: 1h7d8tp.ip1lgpxszkyN%usenet@colddrake.co.uk,
>>
>>
>>> [...]
>>> I'd really hate to attract wasps rather than bees, although I'd
>>> welcome hornets. I like to *think* I'd welcome hornets, but I
>>> think
>>> I hope I'm not put to the test!

>> Why not? They are impressive and beautiful,
>> and I never had any trouble with them, not
>> even very, very close to the nest.
>
> Hornets or wasps?

Both, but I was talking about hornets.

> Wasps have inflicted considerable pain on me, never
> when I'd consciously done anything to deserve it.
>
> I've only seen hornets once, they're not common around here (yet).
> A couple of summers ago a nest some miles away (viewed through
> a perspex window) became a popular attraction. I was fascinated,
> but very aware that they could be extremely dangerous if annoyed
> -- and as I'd never set out to annoy the wasps that have stung me
> I'd
> be worried if hornets were as short-tempered.

No they are not. Their bad name is undeserved.
They are foraging on flowers and avoid people.
I guess they don't like their nest disturbed, but that
is not different from the friendly bumblebees.
How many people are very afraid of bumblebees,
but how many can claim that they are stung by one?
I was stung once by a bb (after disturbing a nest by
accident) and I am still not afraid.
As for the wasps, I enjoyed many times the plesure
of sitting on a bank with the entrance to a nest between
my legs.


> Mind you, they're large enough I might notice if
> one landed on my collar. <shudder>

Little change.

--
º°º°º°º < Peter Alaca > º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°

Mike Coon

Peter Alaca wrote:
> I guess they [hornets] don't like their nest disturbed, but that
> is not different from the friendly bumblebees.

And hornets are known to butt you as a warning before stinging.


> How many people are very afraid of bumblebees,
> but how many can claim that they are stung by one?


Me, but I had just picked it up for the second time (1st time I dropped it)
to rescue it from a vulnerable position.

Mike.
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