Slow Worms

Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with the
rest turned into a Park.
Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms
two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English
Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the
month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good
colony so far I understand.
Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards?
Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of
overgrown land?
Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have to
be redesigned to provide habitat?
I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the
consequences.

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

In article <3pg6ouFa3d3hU1@individual.net>, Bob Hobden <me@privacy.net>
writes
>Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with the
>rest turned into a Park.
>Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms
>two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English
>Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the
>month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good
>colony so far I understand.
>Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards?
>Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of
>overgrown land?
>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have to
>be redesigned to provide habitat?
>I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the
>consequences.
>
What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the
Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely
to make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed.

I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but
there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These
have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave
them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat
close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably
easier for newts than slow worms.

--
Malcolm

Malcolm wrote...
>
> Bob Hobden writes...
>>Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with
>>the
>>rest turned into a Park.
>>Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms
>>two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English
>>Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the
>>month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good
>>colony so far I understand.
>>Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards?
>>Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of
>>overgrown land?
>>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have
>>to
>>be redesigned to provide habitat?
>>I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the
>>consequences.
>>
> What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the
> Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely to
> make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed.
>
> I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but
> there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These
> have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave
> them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat
> close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably
> easier for newts than slow worms.

There is a huge difference between Great Crested Newts and Slow Worms.
Great Crested Newts are a European protected species and hence have full
legal protection of both individuals and their habitats. Whilst Slow Worms
are listed on Schedule 5, protection is limited to intentional killing,
injuring and sale and a licence is not required to disturb, handle or move
them, although English Nature recommend that you seek advice from their
local team if you propose to translocate a population. There is therefore
no legal reason to prevent the development going ahead but it would appear
that the council are taking a responsible attitude in seeking to minimize
any negative environmental impacts of the scheme, beyond the strict
requirements of the law (either that or they don't understand the
regulations!).

David

David

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:08:55 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it?

I doubt it. Slow worms on the land between the railway cycle path and
Greenbank cemetery in Bristol had no effect on the houses being built
there about two years ago. They're just not protected enough to be an
issue.

In article <DfednS7GqqndWq7eRVnygg@eclipse.net.uk>, David Lee
<davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> writes
>Malcolm wrote...
>>
>> Bob Hobden writes...
>>>Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with
>>>the
>>>rest turned into a Park.
>>>Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms
>>>two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English
>>>Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the
>>>month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good
>>>colony so far I understand.
>>>Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards?
>>>Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of
>>>overgrown land?
>>>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have
>>>to
>>>be redesigned to provide habitat?
>>>I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the
>>>consequences.
>>>
>> What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the
>> Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely to
>> make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed.
>>
>> I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but
>> there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These
>> have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave
>> them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat
>> close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably
>> easier for newts than slow worms.
>
>There is a huge difference between Great Crested Newts and Slow Worms.
>Great Crested Newts are a European protected species and hence have full
>legal protection of both individuals and their habitats. Whilst Slow Worms
>are listed on Schedule 5, protection is limited to intentional killing,
>injuring and sale and a licence is not required to disturb, handle or move
>them, although English Nature recommend that you seek advice from their
>local team if you propose to translocate a population. There is therefore
>no legal reason to prevent the development going ahead but it would appear
>that the council are taking a responsible attitude in seeking to minimize
>any negative environmental impacts of the scheme, beyond the strict
>requirements of the law (either that or they don't understand the
>regulations!).
>
David, you're quite right and I'm sorry if I've raised Bob's hopes. I
don't know why I had it in my head that slow worms had the same
protected status as GC Newts, but sadly they don't, as you point out.

--
Malcolm

"Malcolm" wrote after David Lee
and
>>Malcolm wrote in reply to...
>>>
>>> Bob Hobden asked...
>>>>Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with
>>>>the
>>>>rest turned into a Park.
>>>>Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow
>>>>Worms
>>>>two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an
>>>>English
>>>>Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of
>>>>the
>>>>month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good
>>>>colony so far I understand.
>>>>Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards?
>>>>Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of
>>>>overgrown land?
>>>>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park
>>>>have
>>>>to
>>>>be redesigned to provide habitat?
>>>>I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the
>>>>consequences.
>>>>
>>> What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the
>>> Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely
>>> to
>>> make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed.
>>>
>>> I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but
>>> there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These
>>> have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave
>>> them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat
>>> close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably
>>> easier for newts than slow worms.
>>
>>There is a huge difference between Great Crested Newts and Slow Worms.
>>Great Crested Newts are a European protected species and hence have full
>>legal protection of both individuals and their habitats. Whilst Slow
>>Worms
>>are listed on Schedule 5, protection is limited to intentional killing,
>>injuring and sale and a licence is not required to disturb, handle or move
>>them, although English Nature recommend that you seek advice from their
>>local team if you propose to translocate a population. There is therefore
>>no legal reason to prevent the development going ahead but it would appear
>>that the council are taking a responsible attitude in seeking to minimize
>>any negative environmental impacts of the scheme, beyond the strict
>>requirements of the law (either that or they don't understand the
>>regulations!).
>>
> David, you're quite right and I'm sorry if I've raised Bob's hopes. I
> don't know why I had it in my head that slow worms had the same protected
> status as GC Newts, but sadly they don't, as you point out.
>
It's OK, I had already realised their protection was nothing like that of
the G C Newts from all my reading. The plans for the Park do include a
wildlife area which at my insistence they have put inside the allotment
fence so it's protected from the great unwashed. All the allotment holders
left are very "nature" aware. I see a pond and wood piles etc etc.
Originally the wildlife area was to have paths running through it for people
to walk their dogs through !!!! Obviously our Council don't have any nature
lovers on board. :-(
If they did they wouldn't call it derelict land, it's already a nature
reserve with a few compost heaps. :-)

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

Malcolm wrote...
> David, you're quite right and I'm sorry if I've raised Bob's hopes. I
> don't know why I had it in my head that slow worms had the same protected
> status as GC Newts, but sadly they don't, as you point out.

"Sadly"? I would say the exact opposite. The higher level of protection is
indicative of an endangered species and thankfully slow worms don't qualify
at present!

David

Bob Hobden wrote...
>
> It's OK, I had already realised their protection was nothing like that of
> the G C Newts from all my reading. The plans for the Park do include a
> wildlife area which at my insistence they have put inside the allotment
> fence so it's protected from the great unwashed. All the allotment holders
> left are very "nature" aware. I see a pond and wood piles etc etc.
> Originally the wildlife area was to have paths running through it for
> people to walk their dogs through !!!! Obviously our Council don't have
> any nature lovers on board. :-(
> If they did they wouldn't call it derelict land, it's already a nature
> reserve with a few compost heaps. :-)

If they haven't already the it may be a good idea to encourage them to
consult professional advice from either your local Wildlife Trust or English
Nature team before trying to "create a wildlife area", since ill-considered
"tidying up" of an already rich but possibly somewhat scruffy-looking
habitat can exterminate more wildlife than it attracts - as I'm certain you
are well aware.

David

"David Lee" wrote
> Bob Hobden wrote...
>>
>> It's OK, I had already realised their protection was nothing like that of
>> the G C Newts from all my reading. The plans for the Park do include a
>> wildlife area which at my insistence they have put inside the allotment
>> fence so it's protected from the great unwashed. All the allotment
>> holders left are very "nature" aware. I see a pond and wood piles etc
>> etc.
>> Originally the wildlife area was to have paths running through it for
>> people to walk their dogs through !!!! Obviously our Council don't have
>> any nature lovers on board. :-(
>> If they did they wouldn't call it derelict land, it's already a nature
>> reserve with a few compost heaps. :-)
>
> If they haven't already the it may be a good idea to encourage them to
> consult professional advice from either your local Wildlife Trust or
> English Nature team before trying to "create a wildlife area", since
> ill-considered "tidying up" of an already rich but possibly somewhat
> scruffy-looking habitat can exterminate more wildlife than it attracts -
> as I'm certain you are well aware.
>
Surrey Wildlife are doing the full survey for the Council under English
Nature rules so they are already on board, one of our Hythe Park committee
actually works for Surrey Wildlife, yet another is the local tree warden.
My own view about the wildlife area is that they should erect the 10ft tall
fence around the new allotment/wildlife bit and leave the latter part
untouched for us to obtain proper expert advice on what should and shouldn't
be done there.

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

	#1
Bob Hobden	Slow Worms Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with the rest turned into a Park. Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good colony so far I understand. Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards? Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of overgrown land? Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have to be redesigned to provide habitat? I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the consequences. -- Regards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

	#2
Malcolm	Re: Slow Worms In article <3pg6ouFa3d3hU1@individual.net>, Bob Hobden <me@privacy.net> writes >Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with the >rest turned into a Park. >Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms >two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English >Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the >month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good >colony so far I understand. >Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards? >Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of >overgrown land? >Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have to >be redesigned to provide habitat? >I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the >consequences. > What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely to make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed. I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably easier for newts than slow worms. -- Malcolm

	#3
David Lee	Re: Slow Worms Malcolm wrote... > > Bob Hobden writes... >>Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with >>the >>rest turned into a Park. >>Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms >>two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English >>Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the >>month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good >>colony so far I understand. >>Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards? >>Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of >>overgrown land? >>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have >>to >>be redesigned to provide habitat? >>I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the >>consequences. >> > What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the > Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely to > make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed. > > I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but > there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These > have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave > them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat > close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably > easier for newts than slow worms. There is a huge difference between Great Crested Newts and Slow Worms. Great Crested Newts are a European protected species and hence have full legal protection of both individuals and their habitats. Whilst Slow Worms are listed on Schedule 5, protection is limited to intentional killing, injuring and sale and a licence is not required to disturb, handle or move them, although English Nature recommend that you seek advice from their local team if you propose to translocate a population. There is therefore no legal reason to prevent the development going ahead but it would appear that the council are taking a responsible attitude in seeking to minimize any negative environmental impacts of the scheme, beyond the strict requirements of the law (either that or they don't understand the regulations!). David David

	#4
Andy Dingley	Re: Slow Worms On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:08:55 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <me@privacy.net> wrote: >Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? I doubt it. Slow worms on the land between the railway cycle path and Greenbank cemetery in Bristol had no effect on the houses being built there about two years ago. They're just not protected enough to be an issue.

	#5
Malcolm	Re: Slow Worms In article <DfednS7GqqndWq7eRVnygg@eclipse.net.uk>, David Lee <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> writes >Malcolm wrote... >> >> Bob Hobden writes... >>>Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with >>>the >>>rest turned into a Park. >>>Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow Worms >>>two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an English >>>Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of the >>>month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good >>>colony so far I understand. >>>Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards? >>>Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of >>>overgrown land? >>>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park have >>>to >>>be redesigned to provide habitat? >>>I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the >>>consequences. >>> >> What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the >> Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely to >> make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed. >> >> I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but >> there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These >> have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave >> them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat >> close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably >> easier for newts than slow worms. > >There is a huge difference between Great Crested Newts and Slow Worms. >Great Crested Newts are a European protected species and hence have full >legal protection of both individuals and their habitats. Whilst Slow Worms >are listed on Schedule 5, protection is limited to intentional killing, >injuring and sale and a licence is not required to disturb, handle or move >them, although English Nature recommend that you seek advice from their >local team if you propose to translocate a population. There is therefore >no legal reason to prevent the development going ahead but it would appear >that the council are taking a responsible attitude in seeking to minimize >any negative environmental impacts of the scheme, beyond the strict >requirements of the law (either that or they don't understand the >regulations!). > David, you're quite right and I'm sorry if I've raised Bob's hopes. I don't know why I had it in my head that slow worms had the same protected status as GC Newts, but sadly they don't, as you point out. -- Malcolm

	#6
Bob Hobden	Re: Slow Worms "Malcolm" wrote after David Lee and >>Malcolm wrote in reply to... >>> >>> Bob Hobden asked... >>>>Re our old allotment site which is soon to be downsized drastically with >>>>the >>>>rest turned into a Park. >>>>Despite me telling our Council that our old allotment site had Slow >>>>Worms >>>>two years ago they have only recently "found" them and started an >>>>English >>>>Nature type full survey. I doubt it will be finished before the end of >>>>the >>>>month so will have to be completed in the spring. They have found a good >>>>colony so far I understand. >>>>Now, do any of you know what can then be done about these lizards? >>>>Can they catch and move them? How long would that take on 9.6 acres of >>>>overgrown land? >>>>Will it stop the park being built or just delay it? Or will the park >>>>have >>>>to >>>>be redesigned to provide habitat? >>>>I've read as much as I can find but still can't find answers about the >>>>consequences. >>>> >>> What happens will be up to English Nature in consultation with the >>> Council. Every option you mention is a possibility. And EN are unlikely >>> to >>> make up their minds until the environmental assessment is completed. >>> >>> I can't remember reading about a development affecting slow worms, but >>> there have been a number of cases involving great crested newts. These >>> have been variously dealt with by redesigning the development to leave >>> them some habitat or, if that is not possible, creating some new habitat >>> close by, or by wholesale removal, both these latter options probably >>> easier for newts than slow worms. >> >>There is a huge difference between Great Crested Newts and Slow Worms. >>Great Crested Newts are a European protected species and hence have full >>legal protection of both individuals and their habitats. Whilst Slow >>Worms >>are listed on Schedule 5, protection is limited to intentional killing, >>injuring and sale and a licence is not required to disturb, handle or move >>them, although English Nature recommend that you seek advice from their >>local team if you propose to translocate a population. There is therefore >>no legal reason to prevent the development going ahead but it would appear >>that the council are taking a responsible attitude in seeking to minimize >>any negative environmental impacts of the scheme, beyond the strict >>requirements of the law (either that or they don't understand the >>regulations!). >> > David, you're quite right and I'm sorry if I've raised Bob's hopes. I > don't know why I had it in my head that slow worms had the same protected > status as GC Newts, but sadly they don't, as you point out. > It's OK, I had already realised their protection was nothing like that of the G C Newts from all my reading. The plans for the Park do include a wildlife area which at my insistence they have put inside the allotment fence so it's protected from the great unwashed. All the allotment holders left are very "nature" aware. I see a pond and wood piles etc etc. Originally the wildlife area was to have paths running through it for people to walk their dogs through !!!! Obviously our Council don't have any nature lovers on board. :-( If they did they wouldn't call it derelict land, it's already a nature reserve with a few compost heaps. :-) -- Regards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

	#7
David Lee	Re: Slow Worms Malcolm wrote... > David, you're quite right and I'm sorry if I've raised Bob's hopes. I > don't know why I had it in my head that slow worms had the same protected > status as GC Newts, but sadly they don't, as you point out. "Sadly"? I would say the exact opposite. The higher level of protection is indicative of an endangered species and thankfully slow worms don't qualify at present! David

	#8
David Lee	Re: Slow Worms Bob Hobden wrote... > > It's OK, I had already realised their protection was nothing like that of > the G C Newts from all my reading. The plans for the Park do include a > wildlife area which at my insistence they have put inside the allotment > fence so it's protected from the great unwashed. All the allotment holders > left are very "nature" aware. I see a pond and wood piles etc etc. > Originally the wildlife area was to have paths running through it for > people to walk their dogs through !!!! Obviously our Council don't have > any nature lovers on board. :-( > If they did they wouldn't call it derelict land, it's already a nature > reserve with a few compost heaps. :-) If they haven't already the it may be a good idea to encourage them to consult professional advice from either your local Wildlife Trust or English Nature team before trying to "create a wildlife area", since ill-considered "tidying up" of an already rich but possibly somewhat scruffy-looking habitat can exterminate more wildlife than it attracts - as I'm certain you are well aware. David

	#9
Bob Hobden	Re: Slow Worms "David Lee" wrote > Bob Hobden wrote... >> >> It's OK, I had already realised their protection was nothing like that of >> the G C Newts from all my reading. The plans for the Park do include a >> wildlife area which at my insistence they have put inside the allotment >> fence so it's protected from the great unwashed. All the allotment >> holders left are very "nature" aware. I see a pond and wood piles etc >> etc. >> Originally the wildlife area was to have paths running through it for >> people to walk their dogs through !!!! Obviously our Council don't have >> any nature lovers on board. :-( >> If they did they wouldn't call it derelict land, it's already a nature >> reserve with a few compost heaps. :-) > > If they haven't already the it may be a good idea to encourage them to > consult professional advice from either your local Wildlife Trust or > English Nature team before trying to "create a wildlife area", since > ill-considered "tidying up" of an already rich but possibly somewhat > scruffy-looking habitat can exterminate more wildlife than it attracts - > as I'm certain you are well aware. > Surrey Wildlife are doing the full survey for the Council under English Nature rules so they are already on board, one of our Hythe Park committee actually works for Surrey Wildlife, yet another is the local tree warden. My own view about the wildlife area is that they should erect the 10ft tall fence around the new allotment/wildlife bit and leave the latter part untouched for us to obtain proper expert advice on what should and shouldn't be done there. -- Regards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London