mammal ID please?

Hi all..

Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made
it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.

Any ideas?

Les

--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply.

"...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and
exposing the country to greater danger "

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

In message <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
<les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>Hi all..
>
> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made
>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>Les
>

Weasel, stoat?
--
Sue
Remove the puppies to reply

In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
<les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>Hi all..
>
> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made
>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>
>Any ideas?
>
Weasel

--
Malcolm

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
> <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>>Hi all..
>>
>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he
>>made
>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
> Weasel
>
> --
> Malcolm

I thought of both of those, Stoat seems too brown. This was as red as a
squirrel. Still looking for a good picture of a weasel...

Les

--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply.

"...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and
exposing the country to greater danger "

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

- And on Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:15:27 +0100, it was spake thus in <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net> said in message "Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net>:

> Hi all..
>
> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
> Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made
> it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
> lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Les

Stoat
http://images.google.com/images?sour...=utf-8&q=stoat

Weasel
http://images.google.com/images?svnu...weasel&spell=1

Thanks Nick! It was a Stoat.. ID from this pic...

http://www.york.ac.uk/org/ciec/Carin...arge/Stoat.jpg

--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply.

"...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and
exposing the country to greater danger "

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Nick" <no.spam@my-website.net> wrote in message
news

1p7f1dq5fj0ms7kgpcm75nb67jb8e770e@4ax.com...
> - And on Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:15:27 +0100, it was spake thus in
> <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net> said in message "Les Hemmings"
> <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net>:
>
>> Hi all..
>>
>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>> Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he
>> made
>> it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>> lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Les
>
>
> Stoat
> http://images.google.com/images?sour...=utf-8&q=stoat
>
> Weasel
> http://images.google.com/images?svnu...weasel&spell=1

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
> <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>>Hi all..
>>
>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he
>>made
>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
> Weasel

Stoat

In message <3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm
<Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
><les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>>Hi all..
>>
>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made
>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>Weasel
>
Not often I would disagree with you Malcolm but this time I do. For me
Stoat bigger than Weasel - red brown and white underneath. Weasel
darker brown and no white underneath - as I remember it from my youth.
--
Malcolm Kane

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:36:57 +0100, "Les Hemmings"
<les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote:

>Thanks Nick! It was a Stoat.. ID from this pic...
>
>http://www.york.ac.uk/org/ciec/Carin...arge/Stoat.jpg

I think you're right, but some of the other photos that Google threw
up are a bit 'iffy'.

For instance the same photo appears on both sites,
http://images.google.com/images?sour...=utf-8&q=stoat
and
http://images.google.com/images?svnu...weasel&spell=1
once as a stoat (which it is,being in ermine) and again as a weasel.
Also one of the 'stoats' appears to be a polecat (or polecat-ferret).

Cheers
Ian D

In article <GdZb8BDL1m9CFwbt@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm Kane
<malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm
><Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
>><les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>>>Hi all..
>>>
>>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made
>>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>>>
>>>Any ideas?
>>>
>>Weasel
>>
>Not often I would disagree with you Malcolm but this time I do. For me
>Stoat bigger than Weasel - red brown and white underneath. Weasel
>darker brown and no white underneath - as I remember it from my youth.

Well, you remember wrong! I haven't actually seen a weasel for almost
20 years (!) but they are definitely white underneath, occasionally
spotted brown, while their upperparts is described as deep rusty brown
to light sandy tan. The sure distinction is that stoats have a black tip
to the tail while the boundary between upper and under parts is quite
well defined, a straightish line, while it is more diffuse in the
weasel.

Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of
course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking.

--
Malcolm

Malcolm wrote...

> Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of
> course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking.

Well according to the Collins Field Guide all three are of similar size with
differences between individuals greater than between species. For what it's
worth, weasels slightly larger than stoats, on average.

Head/body lengths:

Stoat: 160-310mm (mean of range 235mm)
Weasel: Female - 173-181mm, Male - 202-314mm (mean 244mm)
Rat: 214-290mm (mean 252mm)

(The mean sizes are just the averages of max and min of the range not the
size of an average individual).

David

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Bsv1LSaHzL+CFwRP@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <GdZb8BDL1m9CFwbt@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm Kane
> <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> writes
> >In message <3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm
> ><Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
> >>
> >>In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
> >><les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
> >>>Hi all..
> >>>
> >>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
> >>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he
made
> >>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat
but
> >>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
> >>>
> >>>Any ideas?
> >>>
> >>Weasel
> >>
> >Not often I would disagree with you Malcolm but this time I do. For me
> >Stoat bigger than Weasel - red brown and white underneath. Weasel
> >darker brown and no white underneath - as I remember it from my youth.
>
> Well, you remember wrong! I haven't actually seen a weasel for almost
> 20 years (!) but they are definitely white underneath, occasionally
> spotted brown, while their upperparts is described as deep rusty brown
> to light sandy tan. The sure distinction is that stoats have a black tip
> to the tail while the boundary between upper and under parts is quite
> well defined, a straightish line, while it is more diffuse in the
> weasel.

I used to have a pet male weasel and can vouch for the creamy belly - he
used to lie on his back on my lap to get his tummy rubbed! :-)

Also, the weasel's tail really is rather stubby compared to a stoat's even
without the distinguishing black tip.

> Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of
> course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking.

From Mammal Society:

Weasel
Fur ginger to russet brown, cream below. Long slender body, short tail.
Head/body length: Males 194-217mm; Females 173-183mm.
Tail: males 42-52mm; females 34-43mm.
Weight: Males 106-131g, Females 55-69g.

Stoat
Long slender body with short legs. Medium-short tail (length 95-140mm)
always with a black tip. Fur reddish brown to ginger above, white to cream
below. Some animals turn white or partially white in winter.
Head/body length: Males 275-312 mm; females 242-292 mm.
Weight: Males 200-445g; females 140-280g.

Liz

"David Lee" <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:Isadndb5daF6UGXfRVnysA@eclipse.net.uk...
> Malcolm wrote...
>
> > Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of
> > course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking.
>
> Well according to the Collins Field Guide all three are of similar size
with
> differences between individuals greater than between species. For what
it's
> worth, weasels slightly larger than stoats, on average.
>
> Head/body lengths:
>
> Stoat: 160-310mm (mean of range 235mm)
> Weasel: Female - 173-181mm, Male - 202-314mm (mean 244mm)
> Rat: 214-290mm (mean 252mm)
>
> (The mean sizes are just the averages of max and min of the range not the
> size of an average individual).
>
> David
>
Must be something wrong with the Field Guide - see my earlier posting.
According to Mammal Society there isn't even any size overlap between male
weasel and female stoat.

Female stoat 242-292 mm.
Male weasel 194-217mm

Also, a stoat weighs around twice that of a weasel.

Liz

David Lee wrote: Isadndb5daF6UGXfRVnysA@eclipse.net.uk,

> Malcolm wrote...
>
>> Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of
>> course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking.
>
> Well according to the Collins Field Guide all three are of similar
> size with differences between individuals greater than between
> species. For what it's worth, weasels slightly larger than stoats,
> on average.
> Head/body lengths:
>
> Stoat: 160-310mm (mean of range 235mm)
> Weasel: Female - 173-181mm, Male - 202-314mm (mean 244mm)
> Rat: 214-290mm (mean 252mm)
>
> (The mean sizes are just the averages of max and min of the range not
> the size of an average individual).
>
> David

Weasel - Stoad - Rats
========================
*HeadBody*
Weasel male: 150 - 240 mm
Stoad male: 240 - 290 mm

Weasel female: 130 - 210 mm
Stoad female 215 - 260 mm

Brown rat: 190 - 300 mm
Black rat: 160 - 240 mm
-------------------------------------------
*Tail*
Weasel male: 40 - 67 mm
Stoad male: 90 - 120 mm

Weasel female: 30 - 55 mm
Stoad female: 80 - 100 mm

Brown rat: 150 - 220 mm
Black rat: 180 - 260 mm
-------------------------------------------
*Weight*
Weasel male: 65 - 150 g
Stoad male: 150 - 445 g

Weasel female: 40 - 85 g
Stoad female: 140 - 260 g

Brown rat: 200 - 500 g
Black rat: 130 - 280 g
========================

Source:
Rogier Lange et al (1994)
/Zoogdieren van West-Europa/
KNNV/VZZ, Utrecht
ISBN 90-5011-077-0

--
¨°º°¨Peter Alaca¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨

"David Lee" <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:VN6dnb78PsgiaWXfRVnysA@eclipse.net.uk...

> > David Lee wrote: >> Malcolm wrote...
> >> Well according to the Collins Field Guide...
> >> Head/body lengths:
> >> Stoat: 160-310mm (mean of range 235mm)
> >> Weasel: Female - 173-181mm, Male - 202-314mm (mean 244mm)
> >> Rat: 214-290mm (mean 252mm)

<snip>

> It was a typo in the Collins field guide. I had thought that the
weasel was
> smaller and was rather suprised at the range of sizes quoted for
male
> weasels - 202-314mm - but trusted the author.

Whew, that's a relief!
See
http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk/animals.html#Stoat

--
ned

http://www.bugsandweeds.co.uk
last update 08.08.2005

In message <Bsv1LSaHzL+CFwRP@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm
<Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>In article <GdZb8BDL1m9CFwbt@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm Kane
><malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> writes
>>In message <3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm
>><Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>
>>>In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
>>><les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>>>>Hi all..
>>>>
>>>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to
>>>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made
>>>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but
>>>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick.
>>>>
>>>>Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>Weasel
>>>
>>Not often I would disagree with you Malcolm but this time I do. For me
>>Stoat bigger than Weasel - red brown and white underneath. Weasel
>>darker brown and no white underneath - as I remember it from my youth.
>
>Well, you remember wrong! I haven't actually seen a weasel for almost
>20 years (!)

I have it was about 8 - 9" chocolate brown all over and as you say no
black tip.

> but they are definitely white underneath, occasionally spotted brown,
>while their upperparts is described as deep rusty brown to light sandy
>tan. The sure distinction is that stoats have a black tip to the tail
>while the boundary between upper and under parts is quite well defined,
>a straightish line, while it is more diffuse in the weasel.
>
>Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of
>course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking.
>

Depends on the rat and where you measure again from my youth (youth but
fully grown) I had a pet male rat that with its nose at the bend of your
elbow its tail hung over your finger tips. The only dead stoat I have
handled was about that time and it was a similar size.

However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as
the tail would hardly show.
--
Malcolm Kane

Alaca wrote...
> In my own experience it is very difficult to tell a weasel
> from a stoat, unless you see the point of the tail, or if it
> is a very small or very big one.

As a kid I was told that it was very easy - one is weasely wecognizable
whilst the other is stoatally different! ;-)

David

"Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
<snip>

>
> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as
> the tail would hardly show.

Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a
motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in
similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally compared
the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what he
believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances.

"BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1123668155.6305.0@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net.. .
>
> "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
> <snip>
>
>>
>> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as
>> the tail would hardly show.
>
> Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a
> motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in
> similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally
> compared
> the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what he
> believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances.
>
>

We have two Rats at home as pets so have a pretty good idea of their
size. Plus I'm a courier by trade so used to perspective etc. whilst
driving...

Les

In article <3m0ej9F148jl2U1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
<les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>
>
>
>
>"BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1123668155.6305.0@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net. ..
>>
>> "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as
>>> the tail would hardly show.
>>
>> Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a
>> motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in
>> similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally
>> compared
>> the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what he
>> believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances.
>>
>>
>
> We have two Rats at home as pets so have a pretty good idea of their
>size. Plus I'm a courier by trade so used to perspective etc. whilst
>driving...
>
So it probably boils down to whether you noticed a black tip on the tail
of the animal which ran across the road - or not!

--
Malcolm

Malcolm wrote: 9DrKAPCWIy+CFwkh@indaal.demon.co.uk,

> So it probably boils down to whether you noticed a black tip on the
> tail of the animal which ran across the road - or not!

Or just probability.
Which of the two is the most common?
The weasel I guess.

BTW.
I saw a hedgehog crossing the road once.
High on the legs, body stretched and with a
remarkable speed.
Nothing like the usual rummaging grumbler.
(Or roadside doormat)

--
¨°º°¨Peter Alaca¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9DrKAPCWIy+CFwkh@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>>
> So it probably boils down to whether you noticed a black tip on the tail
> of the animal which ran across the road - or not!
>
> --
> Malcolm

OK, you got me there... didn't notice. Perhaps something could be gleaned
from the location and habitat. Is there a distribution map about? Do the two
animals have similar habitats?

Les

--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply.

"...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and
exposing the country to greater danger "

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:3m0ej9F148jl2U1@individual.net...
>
>
>
>
> "BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1123668155.6305.0@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net.. .
> >
> > "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
> > <snip>
> >
> >>
> >> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size
as
> >> the tail would hardly show.
> >
> > Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a
> > motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in
> > similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally
> > compared
> > the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what
he
> > believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances.
> >
> >
>
> We have two Rats at home as pets so have a pretty good idea of their
> size. Plus I'm a courier by trade so used to perspective etc. whilst
> driving...
>

Forgive my scepticism, but I doubt whether anybody driving along a motorway
in the evening would get more than a fleeting glimpse of a small mammal
scurrying over the carriageway.

"BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1123771593.14504.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
>
> "Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote in message
> news:3m0ej9F148jl2U1@individual.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1123668155.6305.0@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net.. .
>> >
>> > "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
>> > <snip>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size
> as
>> >> the tail would hardly show.
>> >
>> > Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a
>> > motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in
>> > similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally
>> > compared
>> > the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what
> he
>> > believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> We have two Rats at home as pets so have a pretty good idea of their
>> size. Plus I'm a courier by trade so used to perspective etc. whilst
>> driving...
>>
>
> Forgive my scepticism, but I doubt whether anybody driving along a
> motorway
> in the evening would get more than a fleeting glimpse of a small mammal
> scurrying over the carriageway.
>
>

I got size, colour and shape... enough to narrow it down to two
possible...

Les

--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply.

"...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and
exposing the country to greater danger "

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

In article <3m0vejF14r57iU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
<les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>
>
>
>
>"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:9DrKAPCWIy+CFwkh@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>> So it probably boils down to whether you noticed a black tip on the tail
>> of the animal which ran across the road - or not!
>>
>> --
>> Malcolm
>
> OK, you got me there... didn't notice. Perhaps something could be gleaned
>from the location and habitat. Is there a distribution map about? Do the two
>animals have similar habitats?
>
Yes, and a very similar range apart from some offshore islands which is
why I haven't seen a weasel for 20 years!

--
Malcolm

"Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:3m17jgF14u0aeU1@individual.net...
>
>
>
>
> "BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1123771593.14504.0@damia.uk.clara.net...
> >
> > "Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote in message
> > news:3m0ej9F148jl2U1@individual.net...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:1123668155.6305.0@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net.. .
> >> >
> >> > "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> > news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk...
> >> > <snip>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of
size
> > as
> >> >> the tail would hardly show.
> >> >
> >> > Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along
a
> >> > motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road
in
> >> > similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally
> >> > compared
> >> > the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with
what
> > he
> >> > believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> We have two Rats at home as pets so have a pretty good idea of their
> >> size. Plus I'm a courier by trade so used to perspective etc. whilst
> >> driving...
> >>
> >
> > Forgive my scepticism, but I doubt whether anybody driving along a
> > motorway
> > in the evening would get more than a fleeting glimpse of a small mammal
> > scurrying over the carriageway.
> >
> >
>
> I got size, colour and shape... enough to narrow it down to two
> possible...
>

Yes, and you did well to do so. It would be unrealistic, IMO, to hope for a
more precise identification in the circumstances.

	#1
Les Hemmings	mammal ID please? Hi all.. Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. Any ideas? Les -- Remove Frontal Lobes to reply. "...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger " -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759

	#2
Sue Begg	Re: mammal ID please? In message <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes >Hi all.. > > Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made >it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. > >Any ideas? > >Les > Weasel, stoat? -- Sue Remove the puppies to reply

	#3
Malcolm	Re: mammal ID please? In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes >Hi all.. > > Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made >it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. > >Any ideas? > Weasel -- Malcolm

	#4
Les Hemmings	Re: mammal ID please? "Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk... > > In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings > <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes >>Hi all.. >> >> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he >>made >>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. >> >>Any ideas? >> > Weasel > > -- > Malcolm I thought of both of those, Stoat seems too brown. This was as red as a squirrel. Still looking for a good picture of a weasel... Les -- Remove Frontal Lobes to reply. "...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger " -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759

	#5
Nick	Re: mammal ID please? - And on Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:15:27 +0100, it was spake thus in <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net> said in message "Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net>: > Hi all.. > > Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to > Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made > it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but > lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. > > Any ideas? > > Les Stoat http://images.google.com/images?sour...=utf-8&q=stoat Weasel http://images.google.com/images?svnu...weasel&spell=1

	#6
Les Hemmings	Re: mammal ID please? Thanks Nick! It was a Stoat.. ID from this pic... http://www.york.ac.uk/org/ciec/Carin...arge/Stoat.jpg -- Remove Frontal Lobes to reply. "...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger " -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "Nick" <no.spam@my-website.net> wrote in message news1p7f1dq5fj0ms7kgpcm75nb67jb8e770e@4ax.com... > - And on Fri, 5 Aug 2005 21:15:27 +0100, it was spake thus in > <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net> said in message "Les Hemmings" > <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net>: > >> Hi all.. >> >> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >> Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he >> made >> it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >> lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Les > > > Stoat > http://images.google.com/images?sour...=utf-8&q=stoat > > Weasel > http://images.google.com/images?svnu...weasel&spell=1

	#7
Craven	Re: mammal ID please? "Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk... > > In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings > <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes >>Hi all.. >> >> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he >>made >>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. >> >>Any ideas? >> > Weasel Stoat

	#8
Malcolm Kane	Re: mammal ID please? In message <3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes > >In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings ><les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes >>Hi all.. >> >> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made >>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. >> >>Any ideas? >> >Weasel > Not often I would disagree with you Malcolm but this time I do. For me Stoat bigger than Weasel - red brown and white underneath. Weasel darker brown and no white underneath - as I remember it from my youth. -- Malcolm Kane

	#9
Ian D	Re: mammal ID please? On Fri, 5 Aug 2005 23:36:57 +0100, "Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote: >Thanks Nick! It was a Stoat.. ID from this pic... > >http://www.york.ac.uk/org/ciec/Carin...arge/Stoat.jpg I think you're right, but some of the other photos that Google threw up are a bit 'iffy'. For instance the same photo appears on both sites, http://images.google.com/images?sour...=utf-8&q=stoat and http://images.google.com/images?svnu...weasel&spell=1 once as a stoat (which it is,being in ermine) and again as a weasel. Also one of the 'stoats' appears to be a polecat (or polecat-ferret). Cheers Ian D

	#10
Malcolm	Re: mammal ID please? In article <GdZb8BDL1m9CFwbt@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm Kane <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> writes >In message <3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm ><Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes >> >>In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings >><les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes >>>Hi all.. >>> >>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made >>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. >>> >>>Any ideas? >>> >>Weasel >> >Not often I would disagree with you Malcolm but this time I do. For me >Stoat bigger than Weasel - red brown and white underneath. Weasel >darker brown and no white underneath - as I remember it from my youth. Well, you remember wrong! I haven't actually seen a weasel for almost 20 years (!) but they are definitely white underneath, occasionally spotted brown, while their upperparts is described as deep rusty brown to light sandy tan. The sure distinction is that stoats have a black tip to the tail while the boundary between upper and under parts is quite well defined, a straightish line, while it is more diffuse in the weasel. Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking. -- Malcolm

	#11
David Lee	Re: mammal ID please? Malcolm wrote... > Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of > course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking. Well according to the Collins Field Guide all three are of similar size with differences between individuals greater than between species. For what it's worth, weasels slightly larger than stoats, on average. Head/body lengths: Stoat: 160-310mm (mean of range 235mm) Weasel: Female - 173-181mm, Male - 202-314mm (mean 244mm) Rat: 214-290mm (mean 252mm) (The mean sizes are just the averages of max and min of the range not the size of an average individual). David

	#13
Liz	Re: mammal ID please? "David Lee" <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Isadndb5daF6UGXfRVnysA@eclipse.net.uk... > Malcolm wrote... > > > Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of > > course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking. > > Well according to the Collins Field Guide all three are of similar size with > differences between individuals greater than between species. For what it's > worth, weasels slightly larger than stoats, on average. > > Head/body lengths: > > Stoat: 160-310mm (mean of range 235mm) > Weasel: Female - 173-181mm, Male - 202-314mm (mean 244mm) > Rat: 214-290mm (mean 252mm) > > (The mean sizes are just the averages of max and min of the range not the > size of an average individual). > > David > Must be something wrong with the Field Guide - see my earlier posting. According to Mammal Society there isn't even any size overlap between male weasel and female stoat. Female stoat 242-292 mm. Male weasel 194-217mm Also, a stoat weighs around twice that of a weasel. Liz

	#14
Alaca	Re: mammal ID please? David Lee wrote: Isadndb5daF6UGXfRVnysA@eclipse.net.uk, > Malcolm wrote... > >> Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of >> course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking. > > Well according to the Collins Field Guide all three are of similar > size with differences between individuals greater than between > species. For what it's worth, weasels slightly larger than stoats, > on average. > Head/body lengths: > > Stoat: 160-310mm (mean of range 235mm) > Weasel: Female - 173-181mm, Male - 202-314mm (mean 244mm) > Rat: 214-290mm (mean 252mm) > > (The mean sizes are just the averages of max and min of the range not > the size of an average individual). > > David Weasel - Stoad - Rats ======================== HeadBody Weasel male: 150 - 240 mm Stoad male: 240 - 290 mm Weasel female: 130 - 210 mm Stoad female 215 - 260 mm Brown rat: 190 - 300 mm Black rat: 160 - 240 mm ------------------------------------------- Tail Weasel male: 40 - 67 mm Stoad male: 90 - 120 mm Weasel female: 30 - 55 mm Stoad female: 80 - 100 mm Brown rat: 150 - 220 mm Black rat: 180 - 260 mm ------------------------------------------- Weight Weasel male: 65 - 150 g Stoad male: 150 - 445 g Weasel female: 40 - 85 g Stoad female: 140 - 260 g Brown rat: 200 - 500 g Black rat: 130 - 280 g ======================== Source: Rogier Lange et al (1994) /Zoogdieren van West-Europa/ KNNV/VZZ, Utrecht ISBN 90-5011-077-0 -- ¨°º°¨Peter Alaca¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨

	#16
Malcolm Kane	Re: mammal ID please? In message <Bsv1LSaHzL+CFwRP@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes > >In article <GdZb8BDL1m9CFwbt@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm Kane ><malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> writes >>In message <3oN4q6TEf98CFwm9@indaal.demon.co.uk>, Malcolm >><Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> writes >>> >>>In article <3lhvmvF12h0duU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings >>><les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes >>>>Hi all.. >>>> >>>> Seen them twice now, last one this evening coming home to >>>>Folkestone Kent on the M20. A small mammal ran across the motorway ( he made >>>>it, don't worry...) red top fur, white under belly. As long as a rat but >>>>lower and sleeker. Ran low and flat to the ground. Very quick. >>>> >>>>Any ideas? >>>> >>>Weasel >>> >>Not often I would disagree with you Malcolm but this time I do. For me >>Stoat bigger than Weasel - red brown and white underneath. Weasel >>darker brown and no white underneath - as I remember it from my youth. > >Well, you remember wrong! I haven't actually seen a weasel for almost >20 years (!) I have it was about 8 - 9" chocolate brown all over and as you say no black tip. > but they are definitely white underneath, occasionally spotted brown, >while their upperparts is described as deep rusty brown to light sandy >tan. The sure distinction is that stoats have a black tip to the tail >while the boundary between upper and under parts is quite well defined, >a straightish line, while it is more diffuse in the weasel. > >Certainly, stoats are bigger than weasels, if they're full-grown, of >course! But "as long as a rat" isn't very big to my way of thinking. > Depends on the rat and where you measure again from my youth (youth but fully grown) I had a pet male rat that with its nose at the bend of your elbow its tail hung over your finger tips. The only dead stoat I have handled was about that time and it was a similar size. However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as the tail would hardly show. -- Malcolm Kane

	#17
David Lee	Re: mammal ID please? Alaca wrote... > In my own experience it is very difficult to tell a weasel > from a stoat, unless you see the point of the tail, or if it > is a very small or very big one. As a kid I was told that it was very easy - one is weasely wecognizable whilst the other is stoatally different! ;-) David

	#18
BAC	Re: mammal ID please? "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk... <snip> > > However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as > the tail would hardly show. Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally compared the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what he believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances.

	#19
Les Hemmings	Re: mammal ID please? "BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message news:1123668155.6305.0@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net.. . > > "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message > news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk... > <snip> > >> >> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as >> the tail would hardly show. > > Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a > motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in > similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally > compared > the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what he > believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances. > > We have two Rats at home as pets so have a pretty good idea of their size. Plus I'm a courier by trade so used to perspective etc. whilst driving... Les

	#23
BAC	Re: mammal ID please? "Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote in message news:3m0ej9F148jl2U1@individual.net... > > > > > "BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message > news:1123668155.6305.0@sabbath.news.uk.clara.net.. . > > > > "Malcolm Kane" <malcolm@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk> wrote in message > > news:9qglhzFjiQ+CFwGv@jgj-jewellers.demon.co.uk... > > <snip> > > > >> > >> However a running rat would probably not give that impression of size as > >> the tail would hardly show. > > > > Especially if observed in the evening from a vehicle travelling along a > > motorway. The OP didn't mention having seen a rat crossing the road in > > similar circumstances as a point of reference, he probably mentally > > compared > > the size of the animal he actually got a fleeting glimpse of with what he > > believed a rat would probably look like under similar circumstances. > > > > > > We have two Rats at home as pets so have a pretty good idea of their > size. Plus I'm a courier by trade so used to perspective etc. whilst > driving... > Forgive my scepticism, but I doubt whether anybody driving along a motorway in the evening would get more than a fleeting glimpse of a small mammal scurrying over the carriageway.