Peter James

There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins. Can
anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
-
Peter James
Remove AT to reply

Andrew McGleish

"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com...
> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins. Can
> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
> -
> Peter James
> Remove AT to reply

Usually refers to one of the Willowherbs, I think Rosebay Willowherb.

Andrew

David Lee

Andrew McGleish wrote...
> Peter James wrote ...
>> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
>> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins. Can
>> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?

> Usually refers to one of the Willowherbs, I think Rosebay Willowherb.

Yes, Rosebay Willowherb. Known as fireweed because it is particularly good
at germinating after a fire. Apparently it was widespread in bombed parts
of London during the war and ISTR a BBC documentary a number of years ago
that claimed it to be the first colonist following a major volcanic
eruption - not sure where but it was an island - probably Pacific.

David

BAC

"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com...
> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins. Can
> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?

Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is an early
pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it and/or use it
for medicinal purposes.

Peter James

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:40:17 +0100, "BAC"
<casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com.. .
>> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
>> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins. Can
>> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
>
>Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is an early
>pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it and/or use it
>for medicinal purposes.
>
Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able to
find it in the work of reference was annoying.
-
Peter James
Remove AT to reply

BAC

"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:r5a8g1pu1q9k0ras67a3opifmaoc7eia5q@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:40:17 +0100, "BAC"
> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com.. .
> >> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
> >> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins. Can
> >> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
> >
> >Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is an
early
> >pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it and/or use
it
> >for medicinal purposes.
> >
> Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able to
> find it in the work of reference was annoying.

Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most used
common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown reason.
It can give some very attractive (IMO) displays in woodlands, following a
clearance,

see http://www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/mdh/01695.htm

for example, but I guess most people are more familiar with it as a garden
or wasteland 'weed'.

David Lee

BAC wrote...
> Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most used
> common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
> reason.
> It can give some very attractive (IMO) displays in woodlands, following a
> clearance,
>
> see http://www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/mdh/01695.htm
>
> for example, but I guess most people are more familiar with it as a garden
> or wasteland 'weed'.

The commonly accepted names are often a matter of fashion and depend largely
upon which field guide has the most popularity! Many people assume that
common names given in these texts have Gospel authority and will insist,
often with a degree of sarcasm, that any other name is absolutely incorrect!

I always knew Geum Urbanum as Herb Bennet but a new generation brought up on
"Francis Rose" rather than "Fitter & Fitter" will insist that it has to be
called Wood Avens.

Personally I very much like the regional variation in names - after all we
have the botanical nomenclature for definitive identification.

Daavid

BAC

"David Lee" <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:7pmdncdg5qai_JneRVnysQ@eclipse.net.uk...
> BAC wrote...
> > Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most
used
> > common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
> > reason.
<snip>
>
> The commonly accepted names are often a matter of fashion and depend
largely
> upon which field guide has the most popularity! Many people assume that
> common names given in these texts have Gospel authority and will insist,
> often with a degree of sarcasm, that any other name is absolutely
incorrect!
>
> I always knew Geum Urbanum as Herb Bennet but a new generation brought up
on
> "Francis Rose" rather than "Fitter & Fitter" will insist that it has to be
> called Wood Avens.

According to some sources, geum urbanum is (or has been) also known, in
English, as Bennet's root, city avens, clove root, colewort, European avens,
goldy star, star of the Earth, blessed herb, way bennet, or wild rye. No
doubt that list is not exhaustive. Then of course, foreigners will insist on
using their own names, so in French it's benoîte, German's call it
Stadtnelkenwurz, Echte Nelkenwurz, Märzwurzel, or Nagelchrut, Finns say
kyläkellukka, Swedes, nejlikrot, nejlikkummer, vanlig nejlikrot. And so on.

>
> Personally I very much like the regional variation in names - after all we
> have the botanical nomenclature for definitive identification.
>

I agree, but consideration of the variations between regions and just a few
countries illustrates just why a systematic nomenclature is almost
essential, and not just for taxonomists :-)

Malcolm

In article <1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net>, BAC
<casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
>
>"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:r5a8g1pu1q9k0ras67a3opifmaoc7eia5q@4ax.com.. .
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:40:17 +0100, "BAC"
>> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com.. .
>> >> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
>> >> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins. Can
>> >> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
>> >
>> >Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is an
>early
>> >pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it and/or use
>it
>> >for medicinal purposes.
>> >
>> Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able to
>> find it in the work of reference was annoying.
>
>Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most used
>common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown reason.

Err, no, it's not "unknown" :-)

Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following
[shortened] information.

Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in
most species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in 1578.

Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
"Chamaenerion". [Contrary to what BAC says (above), it is not now placed
in the genus "Epilobium", though it has been from time to time!!]

The genus was created by Gesner in the 16th century who combined
"nerion", the name for oleander (for which the English name was Rose
Bay), with "chamai" = "which grows on the ground". The rosy flowers and
pointed leaves apparently reminded Gesner of oleander, though it isn't a
good resemblance.

--
Malcolm

Bob Hobden

"Malcolm" wrote ,
>
> Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following [shortened]
> information.
>
> Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in most
> species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in 1578.
>
> Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
> "Chamaenerion". [Contrary to what BAC says (above), it is not now placed
> in the genus "Epilobium", though it has been from time to time!!]
>
> The genus was created by Gesner in the 16th century who combined "nerion",
> the name for oleander (for which the English name was Rose Bay), with
> "chamai" = "which grows on the ground". The rosy flowers and pointed
> leaves apparently reminded Gesner of oleander, though it isn't a good
> resemblance.
>
Actually I can see a superficial likeness between Oleander* and Great
Willowherb* more than I can with Rose Bay Willowherb. (He says whilst
looking at both * side by side in his garden)

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

Alaca

Malcolm wrote: GzaEc3huNKBDFw9U@indaal.demon.co.uk,
> BAC writes:
>> "Peter James" wrote:
>>> "BAC" wrote:
>>>> "Peter James" wrote:

>>>>> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
>>>>> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins.
>>>>> Can anyone ID it with it's correct name please?

>>>> Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is
>>>> an early pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans
>>>> eat it and/or use it for medicinal purposes.

>>> Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able
>>> to find it in the work of reference was annoying.

>> Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the
>> most used common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for
>> some unknown reason.

> Err, no, it's not "unknown" :-)
>
> Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following
> [shortened] information.
>
> Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in
> most species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in
> 1578.
> Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
> "Chamaenerion". [Contrary to what BAC says (above), it is not now
> placed in the genus "Epilobium", though it has been from time to
> time!!]
> The genus was created by Gesner in the 16th century who combined
> "nerion", the name for oleander (for which the English name was Rose
> Bay), with "chamai" = "which grows on the ground". The rosy flowers
> and pointed leaves apparently reminded Gesner of oleander, though it
> isn't a good resemblance.

But Nerium (oleander) is a latinized Greek plantname
'nerion', meaning /moist/.
Many Epilobiums/Chamerions are growing in moist ground.
So probably the 'nerion' in Chamerion is not after the oleander
at all. The name simply means 'herb from moist places'.

Epilobium angustifolium
Epilobium. From the greek 'epi lobon ion'

on capsule (siliqua) violet (pansy)
IOW a violet on top of a capsule.
Look at the flowers and you'll understand
(except the violet of course).
Angustifolium

small-leaved

I guess the common name Rosebay /is/ derived from
the name for Oleander, which in turn probably means
pink-colored Bay, where 'Bay' is Laurel (Laurus)
Then Rosebay willowherb means 'willow-leaved Oleander
look-alike'


Sources:
............................................
Backer, C.A. (1936/2000)
"Verklarend woordenboek van wetenschappelijke
plantennamen".
Veen, Amsterdam
ISBN 90-204-5846-9

Stearn, W.T (1983)
"Botanical Latin - History, Grammar, Syntax,
Terminology and Vocabulary"
David & Charles, Newton Abbot
ISBN 0-7135-8548-8

--
¨°º°¨Peter Alaca¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨°º°¨

BAC

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:GzaEc3huNKBDFw9U@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net>, BAC
> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:r5a8g1pu1q9k0ras67a3opifmaoc7eia5q@4ax.com.. .
> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:40:17 +0100, "BAC"
> >> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com.. .
> >> >> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
> >> >> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins.
Can
> >> >> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
> >> >
> >> >Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is an
> >early
> >> >pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it and/or
use
> >it
> >> >for medicinal purposes.
> >> >
> >> Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able to
> >> find it in the work of reference was annoying.
> >
> >Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most
used
> >common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
reason.
>
> Err, no, it's not "unknown" :-)

It is to me!

>
> Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following
> [shortened] information.
>
> Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in
> most species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in 1578.
>
> Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
> "Chamaenerion".

That might explain why some people named it rosebay willowherb in the first
place, it does not explain why that remains the common name of current
choice. I'm surprised it hasn't been dubbed 'bombsite weed' or something
similar, for example :-)

[Contrary to what BAC says (above), it is not now placed
> in the genus "Epilobium", though it has been from time to time!!]
>

Good Grief, Malcolm, you surely can't expect me to keep up to date! I bet
the OP could easily ID it from the name given, which is still in common
usage. I can understand why it was classified epilobium, given the long
flower stems. Besides, I can spell epilobium :-)

Malcolm

In article <1124392285.72412.0@demeter.uk.clara.net>, BAC
<casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
>
>"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:GzaEc3huNKBDFw9U@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> In article <1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net>, BAC
>> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >news:r5a8g1pu1q9k0ras67a3opifmaoc7eia5q@4ax.com.. .
>> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:40:17 +0100, "BAC"
>> >> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> >news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com.. .
>> >> >> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
>> >> >> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins.
>Can
>> >> >> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
>> >> >
>> >> >Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is an
>> >early
>> >> >pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it and/or
>use
>> >it
>> >> >for medicinal purposes.
>> >> >
>> >> Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able to
>> >> find it in the work of reference was annoying.
>> >
>> >Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most
>used
>> >common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
>reason.
>>
>> Err, no, it's not "unknown" :-)
>
>It is to me!
>
>>
>> Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following
>> [shortened] information.
>>
>> Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in
>> most species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in 1578.
>>
>> Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
>> "Chamaenerion".
>
>That might explain why some people named it rosebay willowherb in the first
>place, it does not explain why that remains the common name of current
>choice. I'm surprised it hasn't been dubbed 'bombsite weed' or something
>similar, for example :-)
>

It has, it has been named "Fireweed". What more do you want???

>[Contrary to what BAC says (above), it is not now placed
>> in the genus "Epilobium", though it has been from time to time!!]
>>
>
>Good Grief, Malcolm, you surely can't expect me to keep up to date! I bet
>the OP could easily ID it from the name given, which is still in common
>usage. I can understand why it was classified epilobium, given the long
>flower stems. Besides, I can spell epilobium :-)
>
If you're going to "show off" by using scientific names, then I expect
you to get them right!!!

--
Malcolm

BAC

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6vTLLVALpOBDFw7A@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <1124392285.72412.0@demeter.uk.clara.net>, BAC
> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:GzaEc3huNKBDFw9U@indaal.demon.co.uk...
> >>
> >> In article <1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net>, BAC
> >> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
> >> >
> >> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >news:r5a8g1pu1q9k0ras67a3opifmaoc7eia5q@4ax.com.. .
> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:40:17 +0100, "BAC"
> >> >> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com.. .
> >> >> >> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
> >> >> >> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins.
> >Can
> >> >> >> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is
an
> >> >early
> >> >> >pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it
and/or
> >use
> >> >it
> >> >> >for medicinal purposes.
> >> >> >
> >> >> Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able
to
> >> >> find it in the work of reference was annoying.
> >> >
> >> >Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most
> >used
> >> >common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
> >reason.
> >>
> >> Err, no, it's not "unknown" :-)
> >
> >It is to me!
> >
> >>
> >> Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following
> >> [shortened] information.
> >>
> >> Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in
> >> most species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in
1578.
> >>
> >> Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
> >> "Chamaenerion".
> >
> >That might explain why some people named it rosebay willowherb in the
first
> >place, it does not explain why that remains the common name of current
> >choice. I'm surprised it hasn't been dubbed 'bombsite weed' or something
> >similar, for example :-)
> >
>
> It has, it has been named "Fireweed". What more do you want???

I have heard it called 'Effing Pink-weed", but that doesn't alter the fact
that in the UK it is most commonly called rosebay willowherb, which I find
surprising, as I doubt whether more than a handful of normal people have
heard of or have access to Grigson or Lyte, nor have any idea of the claimed
meaning of the name, which omits reference to perhaps the most obvious
characteristic of the plant, i.e. its pioneering. So I think it would make
more sense if it were known primarily as 'Fireweed' rather than rosebay
willowherb. That's not to say I would 'want' that to be the primary common
name, I'm merely expressing surprise that it, or an equivalent, isn't.
>
> >[Contrary to what BAC says (above), it is not now placed
> >> in the genus "Epilobium", though it has been from time to time!!]
> >>
> >
> >Good Grief, Malcolm, you surely can't expect me to keep up to date! I bet
> >the OP could easily ID it from the name given, which is still in common
> >usage. I can understand why it was classified epilobium, given the long
> >flower stems. Besides, I can spell epilobium :-)
> >
> If you're going to "show off" by using scientific names, then I expect
> you to get them right!!!
>

I was not trying to 'show off', I was quoting a 'correct' name which I
believed would enable the OP to identify 'Fireweed' in his Collins. Judging
by his reaction, it did so. If you perform a Google search for "epilobium
angustifolium" you get circa 34,400 hits. A similar search for "chamerion
angustifolium" yields 5,110 hits. "Chamaenerion angustifolium", 4,560 hits.
For practical purposes, I believe it reasonable to regard the alternatives
as synonyms - they are shown as such in my much thumbed 1965 edition
'Concise British Flora'. But I must confess the most up to date reference on
my own bookshelf is to chamerion angustifolium alone, so, if I had looked it
up rather than relied on distant memory (I was proud of that being one of
the very few 'latin' names I can remember), I probably wouldn't have
disappointed you :-)

Alaca

BAC wrote: 1124440836.5284.0@spandrell.news.uk.clara.net,
> "Malcolm" wrote:

>> It has, it has been named "Fireweed". What more do you want???
>
> I have heard it called 'Effing Pink-weed", but that doesn't alter the
> fact that in the UK it is most commonly called rosebay willowherb,
> which I find surprising, as I doubt whether more than a handful of
> normal people have heard of or have access to Grigson or Lyte, nor
> have any idea of the claimed meaning of the name, which omits
> reference to perhaps the most obvious characteristic of the plant,
> i.e. its pioneering. So I think it would make more sense if it were
> known primarily as 'Fireweed' rather than rosebay willowherb. That's
> not to say I would 'want' that to be the primary common name, I'm
> merely expressing surprise that it, or an equivalent, isn't.

I am not surprised. Altough it is a common weed
after fires, it is essentially a pioneer of natural and
unnatural clearings of (coniferous) woodland and
comparable light- and soil conditions.
Clearings in general are much mor common than
forest (or heath) fires.

--
º°º°º°º < Peter Alaca > º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°º°

Malcolm

In article <1124440836.5284.0@spandrell.news.uk.clara.net>, BAC
<casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
>
>"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:6vTLLVALpOBDFw7A@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> In article <1124392285.72412.0@demeter.uk.clara.net>, BAC
>> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >news:GzaEc3huNKBDFw9U@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>> >>
>> >> In article <1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net>, BAC
>> >> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
>> >> >
>> >> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> >news:r5a8g1pu1q9k0ras67a3opifmaoc7eia5q@4ax.com.. .
>> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:40:17 +0100, "BAC"
>> >> >> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"Peter James" <pfjames@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >> >> >news:mk86g159a9daagk7d4hbbl1t0u3ic60sgv@4ax.com.. .
>> >> >> >> There was a reference in an earlier posting to this NG of a plant
>> >> >> >> called "Fireweed". I can't find any reference to it in Collins.
>> >Can
>> >> >> >> anyone ID it with it's correct name please?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Correct name is epilobium angustifolium. 'Fireweed' because it is
>an
>> >> >early
>> >> >> >pioneer after fire or clearance. Some Native Americans eat it
>and/or
>> >use
>> >> >it
>> >> >> >for medicinal purposes.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> Many thanks. I'm not an expert on wild plants, but not being able
>to
>> >> >> find it in the work of reference was annoying.
>> >> >
>> >> >Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most
>> >used
>> >> >common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
>> >reason.
>> >>
>> >> Err, no, it's not "unknown" :-)
>> >
>> >It is to me!
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following
>> >> [shortened] information.
>> >>
>> >> Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in
>> >> most species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in
>1578.
>> >>
>> >> Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
>> >> "Chamaenerion".
>> >
>> >That might explain why some people named it rosebay willowherb in the
>first
>> >place, it does not explain why that remains the common name of current
>> >choice. I'm surprised it hasn't been dubbed 'bombsite weed' or something
>> >similar, for example :-)
>> >
>>
>> It has, it has been named "Fireweed". What more do you want???
>
>I have heard it called 'Effing Pink-weed", but that doesn't alter the fact
>that in the UK it is most commonly called rosebay willowherb, which I find
>surprising, as I doubt whether more than a handful of normal people have
>heard of or have access to Grigson or Lyte, nor have any idea of the claimed
>meaning of the name, which omits reference to perhaps the most obvious
>characteristic of the plant, i.e. its pioneering. So I think it would make
>more sense if it were known primarily as 'Fireweed' rather than rosebay
>willowherb. That's not to say I would 'want' that to be the primary common
>name, I'm merely expressing surprise that it, or an equivalent, isn't.

I personally prefer the euphoniosity(1) of Rosebay Willowherb to that of
Fireweed.

(1) No, I don't think there is such a word, but it conveys what I mean!

>>
>> >[Contrary to what BAC says (above), it is not now placed
>> >> in the genus "Epilobium", though it has been from time to time!!]
>> >>
>> >
>> >Good Grief, Malcolm, you surely can't expect me to keep up to date! I bet
>> >the OP could easily ID it from the name given, which is still in common
>> >usage. I can understand why it was classified epilobium, given the long
>> >flower stems. Besides, I can spell epilobium :-)
>> >
>> If you're going to "show off" by using scientific names, then I expect
>> you to get them right!!!
>>
>
>I was not trying to 'show off', I was quoting a 'correct' name which I
>believed would enable the OP to identify 'Fireweed' in his Collins. Judging
>by his reaction, it did so. If you perform a Google search for "epilobium
>angustifolium" you get circa 34,400 hits. A similar search for "chamerion
>angustifolium" yields 5,110 hits. "Chamaenerion angustifolium", 4,560 hits.
>For practical purposes, I believe it reasonable to regard the alternatives
>as synonyms - they are shown as such in my much thumbed 1965 edition
>'Concise British Flora'. But I must confess the most up to date reference on
>my own bookshelf is to chamerion angustifolium alone, so, if I had looked it
>up rather than relied on distant memory (I was proud of that being one of
>the very few 'latin' names I can remember), I probably wouldn't have
>disappointed you :-)
>
LOL!

As I've said, it has been classified as Epilobium in the past, but the
standard British flora (Stace) has come down on the side of Chamerion
and so that's the authority to follow. Provided it doesn't change back,
one could perhaps expect the Google ratio to shift in Chamerion's
favour, over time.

--
Malcolm

sarah

Malcolm <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1124392285.72412.0@demeter.uk.clara.net>, BAC
> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:GzaEc3huNKBDFw9U@indaal.demon.co.uk...
[-] Hope I got that right...
> >>
> >> Geoffrey Grigson's 'The Englishman's Flora' has the following
> >> [shortened] information.
> >>
> >> Willowherb comes from the likeness of the leaves (long and narrow in
> >> most species) to those of the willow and was first used by Lyte in 1578.
> >>
> >> Rosebay comes from the generic name "Chamerion", formerly spelt
> >> "Chamaenerion".
> >
> >That might explain why some people named it rosebay willowherb in the first
> >place, it does not explain why that remains the common name of current
> >choice. I'm surprised it hasn't been dubbed 'bombsite weed' or something
> >similar, for example :-)
> >
>
> It has, it has been named "Fireweed". What more do you want???

For what little it's worth, what was _Epilobium angustifolium_ when I
learned its scientific name is known as Fireweed in western N America,
where it often covers the site of recent forest fires in pink. I regret
I can't offer my own pictures of the charred black trees rising out of
pink (I hate pink), but http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col039.html
might help, and I'm sure there are others.

I did have a good slide of a charred forest rising out of virgin snow on
a day with a perfect blue sky, but all the slides are fading/turning
yellow. Old age, eh?

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

David Lee

Malcolm wrote...
> As I've said, it has been classified as Epilobium in the past, but the
> standard British flora (Stace) has come down on the side of Chamerion and
> so that's the authority to follow. Provided it doesn't change back, one
> could perhaps expect the Google ratio to shift in Chamerion's favour, over
> time.

According to the National Biodiversity Network's Species Dictionary,
Chamaenerion angustifolium, Chamaerion angustifolium and Epilobium
angustifolium are all listed as synonyms for Chamerion angustifolium. "Also
known as": Fireweed & Rosebay Willowherb.

David

Malcolm

In article <ucydnXMdm73gtJveRVnyhQ@eclipse.net.uk>, David Lee
<davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> writes
>Malcolm wrote...
>> As I've said, it has been classified as Epilobium in the past, but the
>> standard British flora (Stace) has come down on the side of Chamerion and
>> so that's the authority to follow. Provided it doesn't change back, one
>> could perhaps expect the Google ratio to shift in Chamerion's favour, over
>> time.
>
>According to the National Biodiversity Network's Species Dictionary,
>Chamaenerion angustifolium, Chamaerion angustifolium and Epilobium
>angustifolium are all listed as synonyms for Chamerion angustifolium. "Also
>known as": Fireweed & Rosebay Willowherb.
>
Yep, the first three are all names that have been used in the past but
have now been superseded, hence "synonyms". The NBN's species dictionary
for flowering plants follows Stace who in turn follows Kent.

--
Malcolm

Les Hemmings

"BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net...
>
ing.
>
> Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most used
> common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
> reason.
> It can give some very attractive (IMO) displays in woodlands, following a
> clearance,
>
> see http://www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/mdh/01695.htm
>
> for example, but I guess most people are more familiar with it as a garden
> or wasteland 'weed'.
>
>

Is this the same pink spires that I see adorning the motorways in NW
England at this time of year?

Les

--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply.

"...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and
exposing the country to greater danger "

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Malcolm

In article <3mn2k9F17peflU1@individual.net>, Les Hemmings
<les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> writes
>"BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net...
>>
>ing.
>>
>> Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most used
>> common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
>> reason.
>> It can give some very attractive (IMO) displays in woodlands, following a
>> clearance,
>>
>> see http://www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/mdh/01695.htm
>>
>> for example, but I guess most people are more familiar with it as a garden
>> or wasteland 'weed'.
>>
>>
>
> Is this the same pink spires that I see adorning the motorways in NW
>England at this time of year?
>
Probably, but not certainly.

--
Malcolm

Herbwormwood

X-No-Archive
It is definitely Rosebay Willowherb, which is just on its way out here
in Tyne and Wear.
I personally think "fireweed" may be a U.S English term. It is not
listed in Marjorie Blamey's Wild Flowers by Colour under Fireweed yet
she lists it under Willowherb, Rosebay.
Also in my rambles I have noticed it as a plant of wasteground in
general, it likes the sides of railway lines in particular, also road
verges and partially forested areas.
Richard Mabey claims the shoots are edible.

BAC

"Les Hemmings" <les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:3mn2k9F17peflU1@individual.net...
>
>
>
>
> "BAC" <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1124358584.47533.0@despina.uk.clara.net...
> >
> ing.
> >
> > Glad to have been of assistance. As others have pointed out, the most
used
> > common name for it in the UK is rosebay willowherb, for some unknown
> > reason.
> > It can give some very attractive (IMO) displays in woodlands, following
a
> > clearance,
> >
> > see http://www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/mdh/01695.htm
> >
> > for example, but I guess most people are more familiar with it as a
garden
> > or wasteland 'weed'.
> >
> >
>
> Is this the same pink spires that I see adorning the motorways in NW
> England at this time of year?
>

Possibly :-)

BAC

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AX9Fl2Sy7iBDFw+D@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <ucydnXMdm73gtJveRVnyhQ@eclipse.net.uk>, David Lee
> <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> writes
> >Malcolm wrote...
> >> As I've said, it has been classified as Epilobium in the past, but the
> >> standard British flora (Stace) has come down on the side of Chamerion
and
> >> so that's the authority to follow. Provided it doesn't change back, one
> >> could perhaps expect the Google ratio to shift in Chamerion's favour,
over
> >> time.
> >
> >According to the National Biodiversity Network's Species Dictionary,
> >Chamaenerion angustifolium, Chamaerion angustifolium and Epilobium
> >angustifolium are all listed as synonyms for Chamerion angustifolium.
"Also
> >known as": Fireweed & Rosebay Willowherb.
> >
> Yep, the first three are all names that have been used in the past but
> have now been superseded, hence "synonyms". The NBN's species dictionary
> for flowering plants follows Stace who in turn follows Kent.
>

So Stace, too, classes them as synonyms?

Malcolm

In article <1124563693.8919.0@lotis.uk.clara.net>, BAC
<casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
>
>"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:AX9Fl2Sy7iBDFw+D@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> In article <ucydnXMdm73gtJveRVnyhQ@eclipse.net.uk>, David Lee
>> <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> writes
>> >Malcolm wrote...
>> >> As I've said, it has been classified as Epilobium in the past, but the
>> >> standard British flora (Stace) has come down on the side of Chamerion
>and
>> >> so that's the authority to follow. Provided it doesn't change back, one
>> >> could perhaps expect the Google ratio to shift in Chamerion's favour,
>over
>> >> time.
>> >
>> >According to the National Biodiversity Network's Species Dictionary,
>> >Chamaenerion angustifolium, Chamaerion angustifolium and Epilobium
>> >angustifolium are all listed as synonyms for Chamerion angustifolium.
>"Also
>> >known as": Fireweed & Rosebay Willowherb.
>> >
>> Yep, the first three are all names that have been used in the past but
>> have now been superseded, hence "synonyms". The NBN's species dictionary
>> for flowering plants follows Stace who in turn follows Kent.
>>
>
>So Stace, too, classes them as synonyms?
>
He gives both Epilobium angustifolium and Chamaenerion angustifolium as
synonyms of Chamerion angustifolium.

However, as he says in his Introduction, he doesn't bother over much
with synonyms, confining himself to listing those in previous standard
works back to 1958. He says that what he gives "should enable to reader
to equate the names used in this work with thgose in virtually any
standard modern reference."

--
Malcolm

BAC

"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0d3oH8tb93BDFwo6@indaal.demon.co.uk...
>
> In article <1124563693.8919.0@lotis.uk.clara.net>, BAC
> <casswalk@NOSPAMdircon.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"Malcolm" <Malcolm@indaal.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:AX9Fl2Sy7iBDFw+D@indaal.demon.co.uk...
> >>
> >> In article <ucydnXMdm73gtJveRVnyhQ@eclipse.net.uk>, David Lee
> >> <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> writes
> >> >Malcolm wrote...
> >> >> As I've said, it has been classified as Epilobium in the past, but
the
> >> >> standard British flora (Stace) has come down on the side of
Chamerion
> >and
> >> >> so that's the authority to follow. Provided it doesn't change back,
one
> >> >> could perhaps expect the Google ratio to shift in Chamerion's
favour,
> >over
> >> >> time.
> >> >
> >> >According to the National Biodiversity Network's Species Dictionary,
> >> >Chamaenerion angustifolium, Chamaerion angustifolium and Epilobium
> >> >angustifolium are all listed as synonyms for Chamerion angustifolium.
> >"Also
> >> >known as": Fireweed & Rosebay Willowherb.
> >> >
> >> Yep, the first three are all names that have been used in the past but
> >> have now been superseded, hence "synonyms". The NBN's species
dictionary
> >> for flowering plants follows Stace who in turn follows Kent.
> >>
> >
> >So Stace, too, classes them as synonyms?
> >
> He gives both Epilobium angustifolium and Chamaenerion angustifolium as
> synonyms of Chamerion angustifolium.
>
> However, as he says in his Introduction, he doesn't bother over much
> with synonyms, confining himself to listing those in previous standard
> works back to 1958. He says that what he gives "should enable to reader
> to equate the names used in this work with thgose in virtually any
> standard modern reference."
>

To equate, yes.