Sylvia

I'm new here. Sorry if I should have lurked.

I live in the Dordogne in France. Moved here in November last year.

Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney. Realised it
was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like rats or mice, don't
like insects. However, a couple of bats have 'dropped in' from the chimney.
Have become at first intrigued and then enamoured of them. Have not found
much information on the Net. Most popular book on Amazon was 'Bats' by Phil
Richardson. Ordered/got it. Without disrespect it didn't give enough
information for me.

1st question: What's the best book to buy?

Further, do bats of different species roost together? There seem to have
been at least two 'waves' of nurseries.

I have a bat in my sitting room as I type - clinging to the curtain. I can
bring myself to stroke it but not to pick it up and examine it! Seems to be
Noctule or Serotine or Leislers. Pretty sure it has a pointed tragus ...
but it's quite big ... too big for a pipistrelle? Muzzle to tail 2 and half
to 3 inches. This one (I don't think) has a baby under its wing. Have seen
a couple which did.

Any information and help gratefully received. I really want to be a friend
to these creatures.

Thanks

S.

Larry Stoter

Sylvia <spamtrap@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm new here. Sorry if I should have lurked.
>
> I live in the Dordogne in France. Moved here in November last year.
>
> Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney. Realised it
> was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like rats or mice, don't
> like insects. However, a couple of bats have 'dropped in' from the chimney.
> Have become at first intrigued and then enamoured of them. Have not found
> much information on the Net. Most popular book on Amazon was 'Bats' by Phil
> Richardson. Ordered/got it. Without disrespect it didn't give enough
> information for me.
>
> 1st question: What's the best book to buy?
>
> Further, do bats of different species roost together? There seem to have
> been at least two 'waves' of nurseries.
>
> I have a bat in my sitting room as I type - clinging to the curtain. I can
> bring myself to stroke it but not to pick it up and examine it! Seems to be
> Noctule or Serotine or Leislers. Pretty sure it has a pointed tragus ...
> but it's quite big ... too big for a pipistrelle? Muzzle to tail 2 and half
> to 3 inches. This one (I don't think) has a baby under its wing. Have seen
> a couple which did.
>
> Any information and help gratefully received. I really want to be a friend
> to these creatures.
>
> Thanks
>
> S.

Try http://www.bats.org.uk/ as a starting point. In France, try
http://www.museum-bourges.net/anglais/index.htm


--
Larry Stoter

Peter Alaca

Sylvia wrote: news:44ccd5e7$0$32453$636a55ce@news.free.fr

> I'm new here. Sorry if I should have lurked.
>
> I live in the Dordogne in France. Moved here in November last year.
>
> Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney.
> Realised it was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like
> rats or mice, don't like insects. However, a couple of bats have
> 'dropped in' from the chimney. Have become at first intrigued and
> then enamoured of them. Have not found much information on the Net.
> Most popular book on Amazon was 'Bats' by Phil Richardson.
> Ordered/got it. Without disrespect it didn't give enough information
> for me.
>
> 1st question: What's the best book to buy?
>
> Further, do bats of different species roost together? There seem to
> have been at least two 'waves' of nurseries.
>
> I have a bat in my sitting room as I type - clinging to the curtain.
> I can bring myself to stroke it but not to pick it up and examine it!
> Seems to be Noctule or Serotine or Leislers. Pretty sure it has a
> pointed tragus ... but it's quite big ... too big for a pipistrelle?
> Muzzle to tail 2 and half to 3 inches. This one (I don't think) has
> a baby under its wing. Have seen a couple which did.
>
> Any information and help gratefully received. I really want to be a
> friend to these creatures.
>
> Thanks
>
> S.

Try this

Illustrated Identification key to the bats of Europe
http://tinyurl.com/za674


Muséum d'histoire naturelle de Bourges
Bat Planet
http://tinyurl.com/kr5dc

--
p.a.

Andy Mabbett

In message <44ccd5e7$0$32453$636a55ce@news.free.fr>, Sylvia
<spamtrap@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> writes

>Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney.
>Realised it was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like rats
>or mice

Bats' DNA is closer to yours than to that of rats or mice.
--
Andy Mabbett
Say "NO!" to compulsory ID Cards: <http://www.no2id.net/>

Free Our Data: <http://www.freeourdata.org.uk>

Peter Alaca

Andy Mabbett wrote: news:CmAKQ4boCPzEFwAa@pigsonthewing.org.uk

> In message <44ccd5e7$0$32453$636a55ce@news.free.fr>, Sylvia
> <spamtrap@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>> Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney.
>> Realised it was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like
>> rats or mice
>
> Bats' DNA is closer to yours than to that of rats or mice.

Especially if it falls from the chimney.

--
p.a.

David Lee

Sylvia wrote...
> I'm new here. Sorry if I should have lurked.
>
> I live in the Dordogne in France. Moved here in November last year.
>
> Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney. Realised
> it
> was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like rats or mice, don't
> like insects. However, a couple of bats have 'dropped in' from the
> chimney.
> Have become at first intrigued and then enamoured of them. Have not found
> much information on the Net. Most popular book on Amazon was 'Bats' by
> Phil
> Richardson. Ordered/got it. Without disrespect it didn't give enough
> information for me.
>
> 1st question: What's the best book to buy?
>
> Further, do bats of different species roost together? There seem to have
> been at least two 'waves' of nurseries.
>
> I have a bat in my sitting room as I type - clinging to the curtain. I
> can
> bring myself to stroke it but not to pick it up and examine it! Seems to
> be
> Noctule or Serotine or Leislers. Pretty sure it has a pointed tragus ...
> but it's quite big ... too big for a pipistrelle? Muzzle to tail 2 and
> half
> to 3 inches. This one (I don't think) has a baby under its wing. Have
> seen
> a couple which did.
>
> Any information and help gratefully received. I really want to be a
> friend
> to these creatures.

Sylvia

Firstly, take great care when approaching bats. Occasonally they can carry
a form of rabies - in the UK only four or five bats of the thousands tested
have been found to be infected (although many - maybe most - daubenton's
carry rabies antibodies). Unfortunately one bat worker, in Edinburgh, has
died of the disease following a bite by an infected daubenton's bat and
rabies is of course much more widespread in continental Europe. However,
don't let this turn you against bats - a bat will not attack you if you
leave it alone but it is quite likely to try to bite you in self-defence if
you pick it up, just like any small mammal with sharp teeth. If you need to
remove a bat from the living area of your house you should not handle it
with your bare hands but use a pair of stout gloves or else pick it up by
covering it with a cardboard box and gently sliding a card underneath. If
you should be bitten by a bat then you will need see your doctor and get a
course of rabies vaccinations (which so far have proved to be perfectly
effective). In the UK we all have to have preventative rabies vaccinations
before we are allowed to handle bats at all. (I'm normally terrified of
injections but these three really weren't a problem).

Secondly, bats are protected throughout Europe and there are legal
restrictions regarding disturbing and handling them. I can't speak about
France but in the UK a licence is required before you are allowed to handle
a bat - although there are exceptions allowing you to care for a disabled
bat (so long as you haven't disabled it illegally yourself) and you can
remove then from your living area.

I'm sure that you are right about the droppings but there is a simple test
for distinguishing bat and rodent droppings: when they are dry bat
droppings will easily crumble to a powder if you rub them between your
finger and thumb whereas rodent's are rock-hard.

You will have to be more specific about what sort of books you want to buy -
do you simply want a guide to European bats or have these little beasties
fired up your curiosity about bats in general? If so do you want a non
technical book or a textbook of bat biology? I assume that the Phil
Richardson book that you bought is the one published by Whittet Books, which
is an excellent introduction - complete with amusing cartoons and bad jokes,
though not to everyone's taste! However, there is another book by Phil
Richardson published by the Natural History Museum, which is written in a
less quirky style - also available from Amazon - and a condensed version is
available to read online at
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/l...ifeofbats.html

Much more detailed, but still written for the general reader, is John
Altringham's "British Bats" - Collins New Naturalist series. Obviously
directed at British species but still a great introduction to bat biology
and ecology. Unfortunately it's out of print but you may be able to find a
second hand copy.

If you're after the meat and potatoes of bat biology then I recommend John
Altringham's "Bats, Biology and Behaviour" and Gerhardt Neuweiler's "The
Biology of Bats" - both from Oxford University Press. Altringham's book is
more directed towards ecology and behaviour and is much easier to read
whereas Neuweiler deals more with bat biology and his book is a full on
textbook. Both are excellent, though, if that's the sort of thing that
you're after.

Now regarding the bat on your curtain... if it really has a sharply pointed
tragus then it isn't a Noctule, Serotine or Leisler's (but of course it
depends on what you mean by pointed). Nyctalus species (noctule and
leisler's) have mushroom-shaped tragi and those of Eptesicus species
(serotine) are broad and sword-shaped. If you download Christian Dietz's
European Bat Key (as recommended by Peter) then look at Plate 8 on page 26
and Plate 13, page 35 (in the first pdf file). Likewise, Pipistrellus
species have short, blunt, finger-shaped tragi. Sounds more like a Myotis
species - in which case you would expect the fur on the underside of the bat
to be white or off-white. Unfortunately the nose-to-tail length of a bat is
very unreliable - it is difficult to measure and the tail is often curled up
under the bat. Much more reliable is the forearm length - which is the
length of the folded wing - the front end is the wrist, with a clawed thumb,
and the rear end is the elbow. The rest of the fingers are folded tightly
against the forearm. If you see another bat in your living room then try to
estimate this length, if you can do so without actually handling the animal.
Also try to get an idea of the length of the ears - when folded forwards
would they reach as far as the tip of its nose or much further?

In general bats don't come into your living areas deliberately. The ones
that do are most likely to be juveniles that have fallen out of the roost
(and maybe down the chimney) and will be having difficulty finding their way
back. If you think that it is a baby bat then keep it hydrated by offering
it water on a cotton wool bud and take it ouside (in a box) after dark and
release it somewhere safe (ie off the ground) close to where bats will pass
on the way out of the roost. It's mother will be looking for it and the
closer you can get to the roost exit then the better the chance of it being
reunited with its mother.

If you are becoming seriously batty then you should consider buying a bat
detector - as a female of the species, you have an advantage over us poor
males and so can probably still hear some bat social calls and noctule
echolocation calls, but most bat echolocation calls are far too high
frequency to be heard without a bat detector. You will be amazed at just
how noisy they are - a little pipistrelle blasts out 110 decibels of sound
pressure - which is equivalent to holding a smoke alarm about a metre from
your ear!

Cheers

David

Tony Court

David Lee wrote:
> Sylvia wrote...
> > I'm new here. Sorry if I should have lurked.
> >
> > I live in the Dordogne in France. Moved here in November last year.
> >
> > Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney. Realised
> > it
> > was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like rats or mice, don't
> > like insects. However, a couple of bats have 'dropped in' from the
> > chimney.
> > Have become at first intrigued and then enamoured of them. Have not found
> > much information on the Net. Most popular book on Amazon was 'Bats' by
> > Phil
> > Richardson. Ordered/got it. Without disrespect it didn't give enough
> > information for me.
> >
> > 1st question: What's the best book to buy?
> >
> > Further, do bats of different species roost together? There seem to have
> > been at least two 'waves' of nurseries.
> >
> > I have a bat in my sitting room as I type - clinging to the curtain. I
> > can
> > bring myself to stroke it but not to pick it up and examine it! Seems to
> > be
> > Noctule or Serotine or Leislers. Pretty sure it has a pointed tragus ...
> > but it's quite big ... too big for a pipistrelle? Muzzle to tail 2 and
> > half
> > to 3 inches. This one (I don't think) has a baby under its wing. Have
> > seen
> > a couple which did.
> >
> > Any information and help gratefully received. I really want to be a
> > friend
> > to these creatures.
>
> Sylvia
>

For info on bat echolocation and biosonar try:
http://www.biosonar.bris.ac.uk/

For info on British bat species try:
http://www.bio.bris.ac.uk/research/b...bats/index.htm

HTH

Tony

Sylvia

"Larry Stoter" <larry@cymru.freewire.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1hjaukt.1quzk3v1ra64x2N%larry@cymru.freewire. co.uk...
> Try http://www.bats.org.uk/ as a starting point. In France, try
> http://www.museum-bourges.net/anglais/index.htm
>
>
> --
> Larry Stoter

Thanks Larry for the museum-bourges site. Have had a quick look and seems
quite promising. However, don't like to be referred to merkan sites. Sigh.

S.

Sylvia

"Andy Mabbett" <usenet200309@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote in message
news:CmAKQ4boCPzEFwAa@pigsonthewing.org.uk...
> In message <44ccd5e7$0$32453$636a55ce@news.free.fr>, Sylvia
> <spamtrap@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> writes
>
> >Late May or early June there were 'soot' falls from my chimney.
> >Realised it was bat droppings. Was at first appalled. Don't like rats
> >or mice
>
> Bats' DNA is closer to yours than to that of rats or mice.

So, apparently, is a banana.

I've seen your name before Andy. Forget where.

S.

Sylvia

"Tony Court" <tonums@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1154292123.002484.133820@p79g2000cwp.googlegr oups.com...

> For info on bat echolocation and biosonar try:
> http://www.biosonar.bris.ac.uk/
>
> For info on British bat species try:
> http://www.bio.bris.ac.uk/research/b...bats/index.htm
>
> HTH

Thank you. Not sure yet how batty I am ....... I know they're there ......
do I want to hear them also? I dunno...

S.

Sylvia

"David Lee" <davidlee_malvern@dont.use.this.bit.hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:59-dnYap68aajVDZRVnyrQ@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> Firstly, take great care when approaching bats. Occasonally they can
carry
> a form of rabies - in the UK only four or five bats of the thousands
tested
> have been found to be infected (although many - maybe most - daubenton's
> carry rabies antibodies). Unfortunately one bat worker, in Edinburgh, has
> died of the disease following a bite by an infected daubenton's bat and
> rabies is of course much more widespread in continental Europe.

Poor chap. Enough said. I won't be stroking any more bats.

However,
> don't let this turn you against bats - a bat will not attack you if you
> leave it alone but it is quite likely to try to bite you in self-defence
if
> you pick it up, just like any small mammal with sharp teeth. If you need
to
> remove a bat from the living area of your house you should not handle it
> with your bare hands but use a pair of stout gloves or else pick it up by
> covering it with a cardboard box and gently sliding a card underneath.

David, I just leave the doors and windows open and if that fails let it have
the room to itself overnight. They invariably go back up the chimney. I'm
not about to interfere with it if I can help it.


If
> you should be bitten by a bat then you will need see your doctor and get a
> course of rabies vaccinations (which so far have proved to be perfectly
> effective). In the UK we all have to have preventative rabies
vaccinations
> before we are allowed to handle bats at all. (I'm normally terrified of
> injections but these three really weren't a problem).
>
> Secondly, bats are protected throughout Europe and there are legal
> restrictions regarding disturbing and handling them. I can't speak about
> France but in the UK a licence is required before you are allowed to
handle
> a bat - although there are exceptions allowing you to care for a disabled
> bat (so long as you haven't disabled it illegally yourself)

What!!!? What kind of people *are* you ... (!)

> You will have to be more specific about what sort of books you want to
buy -

Being an ignoramus, I don't know.

> do you simply want a guide to European bats or have these little beasties
> fired up your curiosity about bats in general?

Yes. I do find I'm very curious. I wonder if anyone keeps them as pets.
What are they related to? Are they intelligent (as small furry mammals go)?
Where are the dead ones? Why do they need all that humidity? And, as I asked
in the first post, do bats of different species roost together? I saw a
programme (Nature Notebook or something) where Bill Oddie said bats of
different species leave the roost at different times of the evening.
Comment?


>
> Much more detailed, but still written for the general reader, is John
> Altringham's "British Bats" - Collins New Naturalist series. Obviously
> directed at British species but still a great introduction to bat biology
> and ecology. Unfortunately it's out of print but you may be able to find
a
> second hand copy.
>
> If you're after the meat and potatoes of bat biology then I recommend John
> Altringham's "Bats, Biology and Behaviour" and Gerhardt Neuweiler's "The
> Biology of Bats" - both from Oxford University Press. Altringham's book
is
> more directed towards ecology and behaviour and is much easier to read
> whereas Neuweiler deals more with bat biology and his book is a full on
> textbook. Both are excellent, though, if that's the sort of thing that
> you're after.

That's helpful and thank you. I'll check them out.

>
> Now regarding the bat on your curtain... if it really has a sharply
pointed
> tragus then it isn't a Noctule, Serotine or Leisler's (but of course it
> depends on what you mean by pointed).

Oh cripes I dunno! I could hardly see in its ear.

Nyctalus species (noctule and
> leisler's) have mushroom-shaped tragi and those of Eptesicus species
> (serotine) are broad and sword-shaped. If you download Christian Dietz's
> European Bat Key (as recommended by Peter) then look at Plate 8 on page 26
> and Plate 13, page 35 (in the first pdf file). Likewise, Pipistrellus
> species have short, blunt, finger-shaped tragi. Sounds more like a Myotis
> species - in which case you would expect the fur on the underside of the
bat
> to be white or off-white.

Did not see its underside. Fur on back was goldie brown when it was on the
hearth but looked quite dark and 'grizzled' (as per description) when upside
down on the curtain.

Unfortunately the nose-to-tail length of a bat is
> very unreliable - it is difficult to measure and the tail is often curled
up
> under the bat. Much more reliable is the forearm length - which is the
> length of the folded wing - the front end is the wrist, with a clawed
thumb,
> and the rear end is the elbow. The rest of the fingers are folded tightly
> against the forearm. If you see another bat in your living room then try
to
> estimate this length, if you can do so without actually handling the
animal.
> Also try to get an idea of the length of the ears - when folded forwards
> would they reach as far as the tip of its nose or much further?

It had short, round, brown ears. No way would they have reached its nose.
Quite a doggy face really.

>
> In general bats don't come into your living areas deliberately. The ones
> that do are most likely to be juveniles that have fallen out of the roost
> (and maybe down the chimney) and will be having difficulty finding their
way
> back.

David, they aren't anywhere else. They live and breed in the chimney. We
have checked the attics and apart from a very little evidence that maybe one
or two bats overwintered there, they are not in residence now. I should tell
you that what made us realise we had bats in the first place was the
accumulation of bat droppings in the hearth in a week (one week!) at the
beginning of June was enough to fill a dustpan to overflowing! (Remarks
about my housekeeping are neither welcome nor helpful.) The droppings
almost disappeared for about two weeks from 15th-ish to 30th June. Then
another lot started. By this time, you'll be relieved to hear, we had put
newspapers down to catch them. (My husband calls it the patter of tiny
turds.) Yesterday's bat was about the seventh this summer. We have decided
to name them alphabetically. So yesterday's was designated Grace. The very
first might have been a horse-shoe. (Hey! I could call it Attilla!) It was
bigger and looked different from the others we've seen. No I didn't see its
face and anyway I've only recently learned of nose frills. Sorry. Leaves.

If you think that it is a baby bat then keep it hydrated by offering
> it water on a cotton wool bud

OFGS! I'm not about to faff about like that! Cotton-wool buds!

and take it ouside (in a box) after dark and
> release it somewhere safe (ie off the ground) close to where bats will
pass
> on the way out of the roost. It's mother will be looking for it and the
> closer you can get to the roost exit then the better the chance of it
being
> reunited with its mother.

Well I really wish them all well but basically my attitude is every bat for
itself. And the devil take the hindmost. I believe a couple of the fallen
bats may have been quite young. Several have been mothers with a baby
clinging. We have come to recognise this by the fallen bat having one wing
(wing?) displaced/stretched out and then, when its got over its fall, when
it starts to crawl back up the chimney, there can be seen the back end of
the baby, crawling under the wing of the mother. This is when I fell in
love with them. A baby bat looks like nothing so much a a Disney cartoon of
an animated postage stamp - teeny little feet on the back corners, front
hands holding the leading edges of the sheet.

The chimneys in our areas have a flat 'tile' over the top. The gap is
probably about four inches. It has to be said the draught isn't very good
and smoky fires are usual and a nuisance. Any thoughts on a solution
gratefully received. Oh wait. Wrong group!

I do wonder if I have an important (to the bats) summer roost. Phil
Richardson ses in his book that bats don't like smoking. Mine don't seem to
mind :-)

>
> If you are becoming seriously batty then you should consider buying a bat
> detector - as a female of the species, you have an advantage over us poor
> males and so can probably still hear some bat social calls and noctule
> echolocation calls, but most bat echolocation calls are far too high
> frequency to be heard without a bat detector. You will be amazed at just
> how noisy they are - a little pipistrelle blasts out 110 decibels of sound
> pressure - which is equivalent to holding a smoke alarm about a metre from
> your ear!

Sounds like (forgive the pun) I can do without :-)

We had big fires all last winter and will again this winter. We normally
get our chimney swept once a year and now I'm wondering when it can be done
without disturbing my guests. Also like to get this fire fixed...

So. This is maybe interesting. A whole shovelful of bat-guano in a week!
I don't know if it matters what species they are. Don't hear them cos the
chimney's about twenty feet higher than the hearth... Not going to give up
smoking or having fires. Not going to hand rear babies. Not letting my cat
in when there's a bat about. Really like to know how many kinds up there...

Thanks David for your informative reply.

S.

Larry Stoter

Sylvia <spamtrap@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> "Larry Stoter" <larry@cymru.freewire.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1hjaukt.1quzk3v1ra64x2N%larry@cymru.freewire. co.uk...
> > Try http://www.bats.org.uk/ as a starting point. In France, try
> > http://www.museum-bourges.net/anglais/index.htm
> >
> >
> > --
> > Larry Stoter
>
> Thanks Larry for the museum-bourges site. Have had a quick look and seems
> quite promising. However, don't like to be referred to merkan sites. Sigh.
>
> S.

Merkan ... ? As in " My fellow Merkans ...."? Don't follow you. Bat
Conservation Trust is a UK registered charity ....
--
Larry Stoter

Kate

"Sylvia" <spamtrap@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:44ce1d1d$1$18828$626a54ce@news.free.fr...
>
>
>
> <snip>Yes. I do find I'm very curious. I wonder if anyone keeps
> them as pets. <snip>
>
> S.
>
>

I have heard of people keeping fruit bats as pets. They would be
easier to feed, for sure!

Kate

Malcolm

In article <ealvek$obp$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Kate
<?@?.?.invalid> writes
>
>"Sylvia" <spamtrap@chy-an-piran.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:44ce1d1d$1$18828$626a54ce@news.free.fr...
>>
>>
>>
>> <snip>Yes. I do find I'm very curious. I wonder if anyone keeps
>> them as pets. <snip>
>>
>> S.
>>
>>
>
>I have heard of people keeping fruit bats as pets. They would be
>easier to feed, for sure!
>
As would vampire bats :-)

I used to know a biologist who kept a fruit bat. She apparently used to
take it to work every day (it seemed happy clinging to her shoulder) and
also brought it to meetings - which is where I encountered her. All very
well and interesting, but she didn't seem to realise that it stank!

--
Malcolm