The case against naturist swims and saunas

I'm using my local municipal leisure centre, five minutes' walk away,
quite a lot at present - 3 or 4 times a week. Besides the gym, sports
facilities and swimming pool there's a health suite (sauna, steam room
and jacuzzi) for adult use only. There are currently no naturist or c-
o sessions, and I've been thinking of campaigning for their
introduction. But I'm now having second thoughts. A naturist session
would be weekly at best, and might well be at a time I found
inconvenient. It would make little difference to my regular use of the
facilities.

So instead, I'm modifying the way I use the health suite so that I'm
more comfortable every time I visit it. I now wear a wraparound towel
instead of the obligatory swimming costume in the sauna and steam
room. This seems to be perfectly acceptable and is much more
comfortable when sweating. Before and after using each room, we are
expected to shower in the adjacent public area where the jacuzzi and
loungers are situated. Rather than going off to get a costume for
this, I simply remove my towel, shower briefly with my back to the
room, and then replace the towel. No-one observing me has yet
commented on this, and I hope they realise that I'm trying to conform
to the general spirit of the rules if not to the strict letter of
them. At off-peak times when the jacuzzi is empty, I have occasionally
used that in a similar manner, discarding my towel on entering and
replacing it on exiting, again without arousing comment.

Perhaps most people now realise that the British convention of wearing
costumes in saunas is pretty pointless and that a brief glimpse of
other people's naked bodies is not a cause for outrage. I don't plan
at present to do without my trunks in the swimming pool, since I sense
that that would not be seen as acceptable. But maybe one day that will
change.

As with naturist beaches, it seems to me that dedicated naturist
sessions in pools and saunas only reinforce the idea that naturists
are a special breed who can't be allowed to mingle with ordinary
people. A leisure centre which offers a naturist session is likely to
enforce the use of costumes even more strongly at other times.

My approach is probably contrary to conventional naturist thinking on
this issue. What do others think?

Chris

Richard T wrote:
>
> I think you should go for it and campaign for CO facilities.
>
I can only envy the Dutch attitude to nudity in saunas and spas, and I
think your middle of the road view makes a lot of sense. But for the
moment I think I'll persevere with my current approach. If someone
eventually objects to the occasional brief glimpse of nudity and the
managers tell me to stay covered, I can ask them to designate times
when costumes need not be worn. And if no-one objects during the
coming months, I can approach the managers and ask them to make c-o
use of the health suite official, since customers appear not to be
bothered by my unofficial semi-naturist practice. I'll let you know
how it goes.

Chris

"Chris Lamb" <chris7lamb@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184962209.753543.244410@n2g2000hse.googlegro ups.com...
>
> Richard T wrote:
>>
>> I think you should go for it and campaign for CO facilities.
>>
> I can only envy the Dutch attitude to nudity in saunas and spas, and I
> think your middle of the road view makes a lot of sense. But for the
> moment I think I'll persevere with my current approach. If someone
> eventually objects to the occasional brief glimpse of nudity and the
> managers tell me to stay covered, I can ask them to designate times
> when costumes need not be worn. And if no-one objects during the
> coming months, I can approach the managers and ask them to make c-o
> use of the health suite official, since customers appear not to be
> bothered by my unofficial semi-naturist practice. I'll let you know
> how it goes.
>
> Chris
If you were a woman you would have no problems. The attitude to male nudity
seems entirely different.

"Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
message news:f7v3il$4sq$6@aioe.org...
>
> "Chris Lamb" <chris7lamb@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1184962209.753543.244410@n2g2000hse.googlegro ups.com...
>>
>> Richard T wrote:
>>>
>>> I think you should go for it and campaign for CO facilities.
>>>
>> I can only envy the Dutch attitude to nudity in saunas and spas, and I
>> think your middle of the road view makes a lot of sense. But for the
>> moment I think I'll persevere with my current approach. If someone
>> eventually objects to the occasional brief glimpse of nudity and the
>> managers tell me to stay covered, I can ask them to designate times
>> when costumes need not be worn. And if no-one objects during the
>> coming months, I can approach the managers and ask them to make c-o
>> use of the health suite official, since customers appear not to be
>> bothered by my unofficial semi-naturist practice. I'll let you know
>> how it goes.
>>
>> Chris
> If you were a woman you would have no problems. The attitude to male
> nudity seems entirely different.
>
>
I don't think that's true. Men are, IME, rather more likely to behave as
Chris does. But I think a woman who did so would be no less likely to cause
complaints.

David.

<freecospirit@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1185173487.909462.217160@m3g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
> snip <
> How do we achieve a national culture change, many of us want it but
> nothing really changes.

Getting BN to actually campaign properly for it would be a start.

On 19 Jul, 17:32, Chris Lamb <chris7l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm using my local municipal leisure centre, five minutes' walk away,
> quite a lot at present - 3 or 4 times a week. Besides the gym, sports
> facilities and swimming pool there's a health suite (sauna, steam room
> and jacuzzi) for adult use only. There are currently no naturist or c-
> o sessions, and I've been thinking of campaigning for their
> introduction. But I'm now having second thoughts. A naturist session
> would be weekly at best, and might well be at a time I found
> inconvenient. It would make little difference to my regular use of the
> facilities.
>
> So instead, I'm modifying the way I use the health suite so that I'm
> more comfortable every time I visit it. I now wear a wraparound towel
> instead of the obligatory swimming costume in the sauna and steam
> room. This seems to be perfectly acceptable and is much more
> comfortable when sweating. Before and after using each room, we are
> expected to shower in the adjacent public area where the jacuzzi and
> loungers are situated. Rather than going off to get a costume for
> this, I simply remove my towel, shower briefly with my back to the
> room, and then replace the towel. No-one observing me has yet
> commented on this, and I hope they realise that I'm trying to conform
> to the general spirit of the rules if not to the strict letter of
> them. At off-peak times when the jacuzzi is empty, I have occasionally
> used that in a similar manner, discarding my towel on entering and
> replacing it on exiting, again without arousing comment.
>
> Perhaps most people now realise that the British convention of wearing
> costumes in saunas is pretty pointless and that a brief glimpse of
> other people's naked bodies is not a cause for outrage. I don't plan
> at present to do without my trunks in the swimming pool, since I sense
> that that would not be seen as acceptable. But maybe one day that will
> change.
>
> As with naturist beaches, it seems to me that dedicated naturist
> sessions in pools and saunas only reinforce the idea that naturists
> are a special breed who can't be allowed to mingle with ordinary
> people. A leisure centre which offers a naturist session is likely to
> enforce the use of costumes even more strongly at other times.
>
> My approach is probably contrary to conventional naturist thinking on
> this issue. What do others think?
>
> Chris

I would say that your approach is probably in some way sensible.
People took a similar approach in Germany when I was there about 20-25
years ago. Sometimes people have only managed to secure their rights
by breaking the rules but that needs organisation as it is unlikely
that one person alone would be able to change everything. Perhaps
groups of people could try going naked on public beaches or swimming
pools and then see what happens. It is food for thought.

On Jul 23, 9:43 am, "Duncan Heenan"
<pleasenospammersduncanhee...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> <freecospi...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message

> > How do we achieve a national culture change, many of us want it but
> > nothing really changes.
>
> Getting BN to actually campaign properly for it would be a start.

I would have thought that the real start would be to articulate as
precisely as possible the nature of the 'national culture change'
which you're aiming for. And only then decide whether BN are the
right body to seek to achieve it.

freecospirit@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> Whilst I do applaud Chris Lamb's courage in the way he is using the
> Sauna and steamroom facilities I do feel that he runs the risk of
> being barred without any warning.
It appears to be a risk that he has chosen?
Change only happens because someone risks something. Chris is is risking
his personal reputation. THANK YOU Chris!

> How do we achieve a national culture change, many of us want it but
> nothing really changes.
It appears that Chris is working to change the national culture. If he
gets no adverse reaction, then he has changed something by people
accepting that his behaviour is normal. Bear in mind that most of the
'free' beaches in the UK are only such because people have used them and
the locals have accepted it over the years.

That is what Chris is doing.
Simon.

"Craig M" <snowmanmagnet@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185188518.134742.128620@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jul 23, 9:43 am, "Duncan Heenan"
> <pleasenospammersduncanhee...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> <freecospi...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>
>> > How do we achieve a national culture change, many of us want it but
>> > nothing really changes.
>>
>> Getting BN to actually campaign properly for it would be a start.
>
> I would have thought that the real start would be to articulate as
> precisely as possible the nature of the 'national culture change'
> which you're aiming for. And only then decide whether BN are the
> right body to seek to achieve it.

I will be asking BN's EC to do just that - if they'll listen to me if I
become a member. They don't currently.

On 23 Jul, 07:51, freecospi...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> Whilst I do applaud Chris Lamb's courage in the way he is using the
> Sauna and steamroom facilities I do feel that he runs the risk of
> being barred without any warning. In his place I would stop risky
> behaviour and first sound out the views of those around him including
> some of the ladies.

Before starting my "risky behaviour", I did get a feeling for the
views of some other users, male and female, just by letting the topic
arise during normal conversation. Pretty well everyone I've spoken to
appears to feel that discreet nudity in the health suite would not be
offensive. That's why I decided to put into practice my ideas for
comfortable and sensible use of the facilities. Remember that I'm not
walking around naked or behaving as if it were a c-o or naturist
session. I'm remaining covered except for brief periods. I don't
regard that as particularly risky, since the worst outcome is likely
to be that I'm asked to keep a costume on in future.

On 23 Jul, 11.45, williamblake wrote:
> Sometimes people have only managed to secure their rights
> by breaking the rules but that needs organisation as it is unlikely
> that one person alone would be able to change everything. Perhaps
> groups of people could try going naked on public beaches or swimming
> pools and then see what happens.

Organised campaigns to change accepted conventions by breaking the
rules can sometimes be very effective. But an open challenge is likely
to provoke resistance and to mobilise opposition to the change, and
there is no guarantee of success. I prefer the low-key approach of
quietly behaving as if the convention is already changing, which,
indeed, it may be. Progressing unobtrusively in small incremental
steps is less likely to incur outright opposition and may prove an
equally successful route to achieving the changes we desire.

Chris

"Chris Lamb" <chris7lamb@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185377328.942851.232420@57g2000hsv.googlegro ups.com...
> snip <
> Organised campaigns to change accepted conventions by breaking the
> rules can sometimes be very effective. But an open challenge is likely
> to provoke resistance and to mobilise opposition to the change, and
> there is no guarantee of success. I prefer the low-key approach of
> quietly behaving as if the convention is already changing, which,
> indeed, it may be. Progressing unobtrusively in small incremental
> steps is less likely to incur outright opposition and may prove an
> equally successful route to achieving the changes we desire.
>
> Chris

I think there is room for both types of campaigning. Confrontational
campaigning needs strength in numbers to be effective though.

"Craig M" <snowmanmagnet@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186067780.915791.115660@d30g2000prg.googlegr oups.com...
>
> The survey carried out by BN in 2000 showed, naturists are a small
> minority of those who engage in recreational activities without
> clothing. So I find it difficult to see the logic of restricting the
> provision of these facilities and services to naturists -

What "facilities and services" would those be? And before anyone can
restrict any provision to "naturists" they are going to have to identify
those who are "naturists" and those who aren't. So how is anyone expected to
tell the difference?

David.

>

"williamblake" <petergmackie@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1185187503.987456.304360@k79g2000hse.googlegr oups.com...
> On 19 Jul, 17:32, Chris Lamb <chris7l...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I'm using my local municipal leisure centre, five minutes' walk away,
>> quite a lot at present - 3 or 4 times a week.>
>
>> So instead, I'm modifying the way I use the health suite so that I'm
>> more comfortable every time I visit it. I now wear a wraparound towel
>> instead of the obligatory swimming costume in the sauna and steam
>> room. This seems to be perfectly acceptable and is much more
>> comfortable when sweating. Before and after using each room, we are
>> expected to shower in the adjacent public area where the jacuzzi and
>> loungers are situated. Rather than going off to get a costume for
>> this, I simply remove my towel, shower briefly with my back to the
>> room, and then replace the towel. No-one observing me has yet
>> commented on this, and I hope they realise that I'm trying to conform
>> to the general spirit of the rules if not to the strict letter of
>> them. At off-peak times when the jacuzzi is empty, I have occasionally
>> used that in a similar manner, discarding my towel on entering and
>> replacing it on exiting, again without arousing comment.
>>

Sounds like my Municipal sports centre (Handy Cross). Exactly the same
notices about mixed area and costumes nust be worn. I've often thought of
doing what you describe. I think maybe I'll try it.

Thanks for writing about this - it's given me the encouragement I needed to
go ahead

Roy

	#1
Chris Lamb	The case against naturist swims and saunas I'm using my local municipal leisure centre, five minutes' walk away, quite a lot at present - 3 or 4 times a week. Besides the gym, sports facilities and swimming pool there's a health suite (sauna, steam room and jacuzzi) for adult use only. There are currently no naturist or c- o sessions, and I've been thinking of campaigning for their introduction. But I'm now having second thoughts. A naturist session would be weekly at best, and might well be at a time I found inconvenient. It would make little difference to my regular use of the facilities. So instead, I'm modifying the way I use the health suite so that I'm more comfortable every time I visit it. I now wear a wraparound towel instead of the obligatory swimming costume in the sauna and steam room. This seems to be perfectly acceptable and is much more comfortable when sweating. Before and after using each room, we are expected to shower in the adjacent public area where the jacuzzi and loungers are situated. Rather than going off to get a costume for this, I simply remove my towel, shower briefly with my back to the room, and then replace the towel. No-one observing me has yet commented on this, and I hope they realise that I'm trying to conform to the general spirit of the rules if not to the strict letter of them. At off-peak times when the jacuzzi is empty, I have occasionally used that in a similar manner, discarding my towel on entering and replacing it on exiting, again without arousing comment. Perhaps most people now realise that the British convention of wearing costumes in saunas is pretty pointless and that a brief glimpse of other people's naked bodies is not a cause for outrage. I don't plan at present to do without my trunks in the swimming pool, since I sense that that would not be seen as acceptable. But maybe one day that will change. As with naturist beaches, it seems to me that dedicated naturist sessions in pools and saunas only reinforce the idea that naturists are a special breed who can't be allowed to mingle with ordinary people. A leisure centre which offers a naturist session is likely to enforce the use of costumes even more strongly at other times. My approach is probably contrary to conventional naturist thinking on this issue. What do others think? Chris

	#2
Chris Lamb	Re: The case against naturist swims and saunas Richard T wrote: > > I think you should go for it and campaign for CO facilities. > I can only envy the Dutch attitude to nudity in saunas and spas, and I think your middle of the road view makes a lot of sense. But for the moment I think I'll persevere with my current approach. If someone eventually objects to the occasional brief glimpse of nudity and the managers tell me to stay covered, I can ask them to designate times when costumes need not be worn. And if no-one objects during the coming months, I can approach the managers and ask them to make c-o use of the health suite official, since customers appear not to be bothered by my unofficial semi-naturist practice. I'll let you know how it goes. Chris

	#3
Duncan Heenan	Re: The case against naturist swims and saunas "Chris Lamb" <chris7lamb@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1184962209.753543.244410@n2g2000hse.googlegro ups.com... > > Richard T wrote: >> >> I think you should go for it and campaign for CO facilities. >> > I can only envy the Dutch attitude to nudity in saunas and spas, and I > think your middle of the road view makes a lot of sense. But for the > moment I think I'll persevere with my current approach. If someone > eventually objects to the occasional brief glimpse of nudity and the > managers tell me to stay covered, I can ask them to designate times > when costumes need not be worn. And if no-one objects during the > coming months, I can approach the managers and ask them to make c-o > use of the health suite official, since customers appear not to be > bothered by my unofficial semi-naturist practice. I'll let you know > how it goes. > > Chris If you were a woman you would have no problems. The attitude to male nudity seems entirely different.

	#4
David Looser	Re: The case against naturist swims and saunas "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message news:f7v3il$4sq$6@aioe.org... > > "Chris Lamb" <chris7lamb@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1184962209.753543.244410@n2g2000hse.googlegro ups.com... >> >> Richard T wrote: >>> >>> I think you should go for it and campaign for CO facilities. >>> >> I can only envy the Dutch attitude to nudity in saunas and spas, and I >> think your middle of the road view makes a lot of sense. But for the >> moment I think I'll persevere with my current approach. If someone >> eventually objects to the occasional brief glimpse of nudity and the >> managers tell me to stay covered, I can ask them to designate times >> when costumes need not be worn. And if no-one objects during the >> coming months, I can approach the managers and ask them to make c-o >> use of the health suite official, since customers appear not to be >> bothered by my unofficial semi-naturist practice. I'll let you know >> how it goes. >> >> Chris > If you were a woman you would have no problems. The attitude to male > nudity seems entirely different. > > I don't think that's true. Men are, IME, rather more likely to behave as Chris does. But I think a woman who did so would be no less likely to cause complaints. David.

	#6
williamblake	Re: The case against naturist swims and saunas On 19 Jul, 17:32, Chris Lamb <chris7l...@yahoo.com> wrote: > I'm using my local municipal leisure centre, five minutes' walk away, > quite a lot at present - 3 or 4 times a week. Besides the gym, sports > facilities and swimming pool there's a health suite (sauna, steam room > and jacuzzi) for adult use only. There are currently no naturist or c- > o sessions, and I've been thinking of campaigning for their > introduction. But I'm now having second thoughts. A naturist session > would be weekly at best, and might well be at a time I found > inconvenient. It would make little difference to my regular use of the > facilities. > > So instead, I'm modifying the way I use the health suite so that I'm > more comfortable every time I visit it. I now wear a wraparound towel > instead of the obligatory swimming costume in the sauna and steam > room. This seems to be perfectly acceptable and is much more > comfortable when sweating. Before and after using each room, we are > expected to shower in the adjacent public area where the jacuzzi and > loungers are situated. Rather than going off to get a costume for > this, I simply remove my towel, shower briefly with my back to the > room, and then replace the towel. No-one observing me has yet > commented on this, and I hope they realise that I'm trying to conform > to the general spirit of the rules if not to the strict letter of > them. At off-peak times when the jacuzzi is empty, I have occasionally > used that in a similar manner, discarding my towel on entering and > replacing it on exiting, again without arousing comment. > > Perhaps most people now realise that the British convention of wearing > costumes in saunas is pretty pointless and that a brief glimpse of > other people's naked bodies is not a cause for outrage. I don't plan > at present to do without my trunks in the swimming pool, since I sense > that that would not be seen as acceptable. But maybe one day that will > change. > > As with naturist beaches, it seems to me that dedicated naturist > sessions in pools and saunas only reinforce the idea that naturists > are a special breed who can't be allowed to mingle with ordinary > people. A leisure centre which offers a naturist session is likely to > enforce the use of costumes even more strongly at other times. > > My approach is probably contrary to conventional naturist thinking on > this issue. What do others think? > > Chris I would say that your approach is probably in some way sensible. People took a similar approach in Germany when I was there about 20-25 years ago. Sometimes people have only managed to secure their rights by breaking the rules but that needs organisation as it is unlikely that one person alone would be able to change everything. Perhaps groups of people could try going naked on public beaches or swimming pools and then see what happens. It is food for thought.

	#7
Craig M	Re: The case against naturist swims and saunas On Jul 23, 9:43 am, "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanhee...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > <freecospi...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message > > How do we achieve a national culture change, many of us want it but > > nothing really changes. > > Getting BN to actually campaign properly for it would be a start. I would have thought that the real start would be to articulate as precisely as possible the nature of the 'national culture change' which you're aiming for. And only then decide whether BN are the right body to seek to achieve it.

	#8
Simon	Re: The case against naturist swims and saunas freecospirit@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: > Whilst I do applaud Chris Lamb's courage in the way he is using the > Sauna and steamroom facilities I do feel that he runs the risk of > being barred without any warning. It appears to be a risk that he has chosen? Change only happens because someone risks something. Chris is is risking his personal reputation. THANK YOU Chris! > How do we achieve a national culture change, many of us want it but > nothing really changes. It appears that Chris is working to change the national culture. If he gets no adverse reaction, then he has changed something by people accepting that his behaviour is normal. Bear in mind that most of the 'free' beaches in the UK are only such because people have used them and the locals have accepted it over the years. That is what Chris is doing. Simon.

	#13
Lazydog	Re: The case against naturist swims and saunas "williamblake" <petergmackie@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1185187503.987456.304360@k79g2000hse.googlegr oups.com... > On 19 Jul, 17:32, Chris Lamb <chris7l...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> I'm using my local municipal leisure centre, five minutes' walk away, >> quite a lot at present - 3 or 4 times a week.> > >> So instead, I'm modifying the way I use the health suite so that I'm >> more comfortable every time I visit it. I now wear a wraparound towel >> instead of the obligatory swimming costume in the sauna and steam >> room. This seems to be perfectly acceptable and is much more >> comfortable when sweating. Before and after using each room, we are >> expected to shower in the adjacent public area where the jacuzzi and >> loungers are situated. Rather than going off to get a costume for >> this, I simply remove my towel, shower briefly with my back to the >> room, and then replace the towel. No-one observing me has yet >> commented on this, and I hope they realise that I'm trying to conform >> to the general spirit of the rules if not to the strict letter of >> them. At off-peak times when the jacuzzi is empty, I have occasionally >> used that in a similar manner, discarding my towel on entering and >> replacing it on exiting, again without arousing comment. >> Sounds like my Municipal sports centre (Handy Cross). Exactly the same notices about mixed area and costumes nust be worn. I've often thought of doing what you describe. I think maybe I'll try it. Thanks for writing about this - it's given me the encouragement I needed to go ahead Roy