c-o

Andrew,

This reportedly has been circulated by Andrew Welch, and no doubt will
appear on the website and in Pravda (the new name*) magazine:

guote----

A new membership benefit
BN member [name deleted] is a fully qualified homeopath,
practising in [deleted]. She is giving a 10% discount to BN members
on all homeopathic consultations, offering a safe health alternative to
modern medicine. Most conditions covered. For further information,
tel: [deleted]

end quote -----

I have emailed the Commercial Manager saying the following:

Homeopaths do not offer 'alternatives to modern medicine'. If this
person is claiming to do so, then she is probably committing a criminal
offence, and is also to be described by the term 'quack'.

Homeopaths normally 'treat' only conditions that get better by
themselves, as their treatment has no effect other than the placebo
effect. It is, of course, perfectly safe because it involves no
physical effect.

There have been a number of cases where so-called 'alternative
medicine' practitioners have persuaded their clients that they do not
need to have medical or surgical treatment that would probably have
saved their lives, such as the recent well-publicised case of Sylvia
Millecam in the Netherlands, who died of treatable breast cancer after
receiving 'treatment' from a string of quacks. A homeopath cannot offer
any alternative in such a case, nor indeed for 'most conditions'.


Richard Burnham
*Only kidding, but it would be highly appropriate.

c-o

c-o wrote:
> Andrew,
>
Sorry, that was bad editing, that line should be ignored but the rest of
the post applies.

Richard Burnham

Richard T

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:57:39 +0100, c-o <c-o@spamex.com> wrote:

>Andrew,
>
>This reportedly has been circulated by Andrew Welch, and no doubt will
>appear on the website and in Pravda (the new name*) magazine:
>
>guote----
>
> A new membership benefit
> BN member [name deleted] is a fully qualified homeopath,
>practising in [deleted]. She is giving a 10% discount to BN members
>on all homeopathic consultations, offering a safe health alternative to
>modern medicine. Most conditions covered. For further information,
>tel: [deleted]
>
>end quote -----
>
>I have emailed the Commercial Manager saying the following:
>
>Homeopaths do not offer 'alternatives to modern medicine'. If this
>person is claiming to do so, then she is probably committing a criminal
>offence, and is also to be described by the term 'quack'.
>
>Homeopaths normally 'treat' only conditions that get better by
>themselves, as their treatment has no effect other than the placebo
>effect. It is, of course, perfectly safe because it involves no
>physical effect.
>
>There have been a number of cases where so-called 'alternative
>medicine' practitioners have persuaded their clients that they do not
>need to have medical or surgical treatment that would probably have
>saved their lives, such as the recent well-publicised case of Sylvia
>Millecam in the Netherlands, who died of treatable breast cancer after
>receiving 'treatment' from a string of quacks. A homeopath cannot offer
>any alternative in such a case, nor indeed for 'most conditions'.A homeopath
>cannot offer ay alternative in such a case, nor indeed for 'most conditions'.
>
>
>Richard Burnham
>*Only kidding, but it would be highly appropriate.

Am I the only one that thinks you're really scraping the bottom of the
barrel in your determination to debunk everything that Andrew Welch
does?


Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
of whether it's quackery or not.

Richard T

Duncan Heenan

"Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOSPAM@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:57:39 +0100, c-o <c-o@spamex.com> wrote:
> snip <
> Am I the only one that thinks you're really scraping the bottom of the
> barrel in your determination to debunk everything that Andrew Welch
> does?
>
>
> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
> of whether it's quackery or not.
>
> Richard T

It may be of some use to have 10% off something a very few people might
consider, at a single location within the UK, but I think it a bit rich to
call it much of a benefit of BN membership, when it will actually not be
wanted or practically available to the vast majority.

David Looser

"Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOSPAM@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
>
> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
> of whether it's quackery or not.
>

As I discovered in a previous thread some years ago RB is utterly convinced
that *only* modern, western, scientific medicine has any value at all. I am
convinced that he would, if he could, ban all traditional or alternative
medicines. The idea that people should have the choice passes him by.

David.

Hagar

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:5gj7j7F3gjjjiU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOSPAM@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
>>
>> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
>> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
>> of whether it's quackery or not.
>>
>
> As I discovered in a previous thread some years ago RB is utterly
> convinced that *only* modern, western, scientific medicine has any value
> at all. I am convinced that he would, if he could, ban all traditional or
> alternative medicines. The idea that people should have the choice passes
> him by.
>
> David.
>
>


Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial

Hagar

marc

Hagar wrote:
> "David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:5gj7j7F3gjjjiU1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOSPAM@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
>>> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
>>> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
>>> of whether it's quackery or not.
>>>
>> As I discovered in a previous thread some years ago RB is utterly
>> convinced that *only* modern, western, scientific medicine has any value
>> at all. I am convinced that he would, if he could, ban all traditional or
>> alternative medicines. The idea that people should have the choice passes
>> him by.
>>
>> David.
>>
>>
>
>
> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial


Which "person" would that be?

Pete Knight

On Jul 23, 10:05 am, marc <initial.surn...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Hagar wrote:
> > "David Looser" <david.loo...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> >news:5gj7j7F3gjjjiU1@mid.individual.net...
> >> "Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOS...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com. ..
> >>> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
> >>> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
> >>> of whether it's quackery or not.
>
> >> As I discovered in a previous thread some years ago RB is utterly
> >> convinced that *only* modern, western, scientific medicine has any value
> >> at all. I am convinced that he would, if he could, ban all traditional or
> >> alternative medicines. The idea that people should have the choice passes
> >> him by.
>
> >> David.
>
> > Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>
> Which "person" would that be?

If Duncan said the newspaper is white and the print is black I'm sure
Bertie would argue to the contrary!!!!!!!

Pete Knight

marc

Pete Knight wrote:
> On Jul 23, 10:05 am, marc <initial.surn...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Hagar wrote:
>>> "David Looser" <david.loo...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>> news:5gj7j7F3gjjjiU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> "Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOS...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
>>>>> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
>>>>> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
>>>>> of whether it's quackery or not.
>>>> As I discovered in a previous thread some years ago RB is utterly
>>>> convinced that *only* modern, western, scientific medicine has any value
>>>> at all. I am convinced that he would, if he could, ban all traditional or
>>>> alternative medicines. The idea that people should have the choice passes
>>>> him by.
>>>> David.
>>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>> Which "person" would that be?
>
> If Duncan said the newspaper is white and the print is black I'm sure
> Bertie would argue to the contrary!!!!!!!

And another part of Legion would say that print is black and paper
white, but that Duncan is still wrong?

Duncan Heenan

"Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98_oi.2239$2U6.1541@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
> snip<
> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>
> Hagar

It doesn't show!

Duncan Heenan

"marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:Id-dnQCOfeRZ6TnbnZ2dnUVZ8szinZ2d@bt.com...
> snip <
>>>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>>> Which "person" would that be?
>>
>> If Duncan said the newspaper is white and the print is black I'm sure
>> Bertie would argue to the contrary!!!!!!!
>
> And another part of Legion would say that print is black and paper white,
> but that Duncan is still wrong?

But don't forget that I'd want to know how much the paper cost, and who paid
for it!

Richard T

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:33:03 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
<pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOSPAM@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:57:39 +0100, c-o <c-o@spamex.com> wrote:
>> snip <
>> Am I the only one that thinks you're really scraping the bottom of the
>> barrel in your determination to debunk everything that Andrew Welch
>> does?
>>
>>
>> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
>> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
>> of whether it's quackery or not.
>>
>> Richard T
>
>It may be of some use to have 10% off something a very few people might
>consider, at a single location within the UK, but I think it a bit rich to
>call it much of a benefit of BN membership, when it will actually not be
>wanted or practically available to the vast majority.
>

It was not called "much of a benefit" it was called "A new membership
benefit".

Richard T

marc

Richard T wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:33:03 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
> <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOSPAM@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:57:39 +0100, c-o <c-o@spamex.com> wrote:
>>> snip <
>>> Am I the only one that thinks you're really scraping the bottom of the
>>> barrel in your determination to debunk everything that Andrew Welch
>>> does?
>>>
>>>
>>> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
>>> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
>>> of whether it's quackery or not.
>>>
>>> Richard T
>> It may be of some use to have 10% off something a very few people might
>> consider, at a single location within the UK, but I think it a bit rich to
>> call it much of a benefit of BN membership, when it will actually not be
>> wanted or practically available to the vast majority.
>>
>
> It was not called "much of a benefit" it was called "A new membership
> benefit".


Available only to new members?

Hagar

"Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
message news:f81t3a$jv9$1@aioe.org...
>
> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:98_oi.2239$2U6.1541@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>> snip<
>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>>
>> Hagar
>
> It doesn't show!
>

Then try them Duncan it might make you a less bitter and more congenial
person

Hagar

David Lloyd

"Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOSPAM@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:57:39 +0100, c-o <c-o@spamex.com> wrote:
>
>>Andrew,
>>
>
> Am I the only one that thinks you're really scraping the bottom of the
> barrel in your determination to debunk everything that Andrew Welch
> does?
>
>
> Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
> And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
> of whether it's quackery or not.
>

He may or may not be scraping the bottom of the barrel, but I have no doubt
that he will keep trying to do so.

When talking about homeopathy, doctors are obliged to talk about
'complimentary' medicine, as opposed to 'alternative'. Some people may use
it instead of orthodox treatments, but GPs et al are not allowed to promote
it as such. Personally, I don't care what AW says about it as I wouldn't
rely on his medical judgement.

David Lloyd

David Looser

"David Lloyd" <dldl11345@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Bz4pi.7624$%v3.3946@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>
>
> When talking about homeopathy, doctors are obliged to talk about
> 'complimentary' medicine, as opposed to 'alternative'.

Err.. no, I don't think so. Some therapies (such as massage) are
"complementary". Others (such as homeopathy) are "alternative". It depends
on whether the medical profession think that the therapy can be beneficially
used alongside conventional western medicine.

> Some people may use it instead of orthodox treatments, but GPs et al are
> not allowed to promote it as such.

Of course they're not. GPs are not allowed to promote anything instead of
orthodox treatments.

David.

Duncan Heenan

"Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sm0pi.2249$2U6.319@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk. ..
>
> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:f81t3a$jv9$1@aioe.org...
>>
>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:98_oi.2239$2U6.1541@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>>> snip<
>>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>>>
>>> Hagar
>>
>> It doesn't show!
>>
>
> Then try them Duncan it might make you a less bitter and more congenial
> person
>
> Hagar
What did you use Homeopathy for Bertie?

Hagar

"Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
message news:f84j0o$83s$1@aioe.org...
>
> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:sm0pi.2249$2U6.319@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk. ..
>>
>> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>> message news:f81t3a$jv9$1@aioe.org...
>>>
>>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:98_oi.2239$2U6.1541@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>>>> snip<
>>>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>>>>
>>>> Hagar
>>>
>>> It doesn't show!
>>>
>>
>> Then try them Duncan it might make you a less bitter and more congenial
>> person
>>
>> Hagar
> What did you use Homeopathy for Bertie?
>
>

It can be used for several things Duncan, he is a short list if you are
interested
What can homeopathy treat?
Homeopathy has a wide application, from acute fevers, sore throats and
toothache, to chronic illnesses such as arthritis, eczema, asthma, anxiety,
mild depression and chronic fatigue syndrome. There has been some very good
research evidence to support this

marc

Hagar wrote:
> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:f84j0o$83s$1@aioe.org...
>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:sm0pi.2249$2U6.319@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk. ..
>>> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>>> message news:f81t3a$jv9$1@aioe.org...
>>>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:98_oi.2239$2U6.1541@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>>>>> snip<
>>>>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>>>>>
>>>>> Hagar
>>>> It doesn't show!
>>>>
>>> Then try them Duncan it might make you a less bitter and more congenial
>>> person
>>>
>>> Hagar
>> What did you use Homeopathy for Bertie?
>>
>>
>
> It can be used for several things Duncan, he is a short list if you are
> interested
That wasn't the question.


> What can homeopathy treat?

Anything you want, placebos have that effect, both in medicine and outside.

> Homeopathy has a wide application, from acute fevers, sore throats and
> toothache, to chronic illnesses such as arthritis, eczema, asthma, anxiety,
> mild depression and chronic fatigue syndrome. There has been some very good
> research evidence to support this

and more that refutes it

http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q8

"systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively
proven treatment for any medical condition."


http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles...7&sectionId=27

"Around 200 randomised controlled trials evaluating homeopathy have been
conducted, and there are also several reviews of these trials. Despite
the available research, it has proven difficult to produce clear
clinical evidence that homeopathy works. Many studies suggest that any
effectiveness that homeopathy may have is due to the placebo effect,
where the act of receiving treatment is more effective than the
treatment itself."

your "very good research evidence" is???

Hagar

"marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:69ydnbRna62ArzvbRVnyhAA@bt.com...
> Hagar wrote:
>> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>> message news:f84j0o$83s$1@aioe.org...
>>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:sm0pi.2249$2U6.319@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk. ..
>>>> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>>>> message news:f81t3a$jv9$1@aioe.org...
>>>>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:98_oi.2239$2U6.1541@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>>>>>> snip<
>>>>>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hagar
>>>>> It doesn't show!
>>>>>
>>>> Then try them Duncan it might make you a less bitter and more congenial
>>>> person
>>>>
>>>> Hagar
>>> What did you use Homeopathy for Bertie?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It can be used for several things Duncan, he is a short list if you are
>> interested
> That wasn't the question.
>
>
>> What can homeopathy treat?
>
> Anything you want, placebos have that effect, both in medicine and
> outside.
>
>> Homeopathy has a wide application, from acute fevers, sore throats and
>> toothache, to chronic illnesses such as arthritis, eczema, asthma,
>> anxiety, mild depression and chronic fatigue syndrome. There has been
>> some very good research evidence to support this
>
> and more that refutes it
>
> http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q8
>
> "systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven
> treatment for any medical condition."
>
>
> http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles...7&sectionId=27
>
> "Around 200 randomised controlled trials evaluating homeopathy have been
> conducted, and there are also several reviews of these trials. Despite the
> available research, it has proven difficult to produce clear clinical
> evidence that homeopathy works. Many studies suggest that any
> effectiveness that homeopathy may have is due to the placebo effect, where
> the act of receiving treatment is more effective than the treatment
> itself."
>
> your "very good research evidence" is???



To Marc

I can only go off what I have personally found Marc, and that is some work
for me. If it works or you think it works and your health feels better then
some good has been gained from it.
I have never said it would work for everybody, I am just quoting from
personal experience.
So please get off my case, you do not know me or what my values are Marc.

Hagar

PS. I could search the internet for replies but I prefer to quote from
personal experience.

marc

Hagar wrote:
> "marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:69ydnbRna62ArzvbRVnyhAA@bt.com...
>> Hagar wrote:
>>> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>>> message news:f84j0o$83s$1@aioe.org...
>>>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:sm0pi.2249$2U6.319@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk. ..
>>>>> "Duncan Heenan" <pleasenospammersduncanheenan@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in
>>>>> message news:f81t3a$jv9$1@aioe.org...
>>>>>> "Hagar" <fatmobo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:98_oi.2239$2U6.1541@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk ...
>>>>>>> snip<
>>>>>>> Personally I have found some of these treatments beneficial
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hagar
>>>>>> It doesn't show!
>>>>>>
>>>>> Then try them Duncan it might make you a less bitter and more congenial
>>>>> person
>>>>>
>>>>> Hagar
>>>> What did you use Homeopathy for Bertie?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It can be used for several things Duncan, he is a short list if you are
>>> interested
>> That wasn't the question.
>>
>>
>>> What can homeopathy treat?
>> Anything you want, placebos have that effect, both in medicine and
>> outside.
>>
>>> Homeopathy has a wide application, from acute fevers, sore throats and
>>> toothache, to chronic illnesses such as arthritis, eczema, asthma,
>>> anxiety, mild depression and chronic fatigue syndrome. There has been
>>> some very good research evidence to support this
>> and more that refutes it
>>
>> http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/#q8
>>
>> "systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven
>> treatment for any medical condition."
>>
>>
>> http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles...7&sectionId=27
>>
>> "Around 200 randomised controlled trials evaluating homeopathy have been
>> conducted, and there are also several reviews of these trials. Despite the
>> available research, it has proven difficult to produce clear clinical
>> evidence that homeopathy works. Many studies suggest that any
>> effectiveness that homeopathy may have is due to the placebo effect, where
>> the act of receiving treatment is more effective than the treatment
>> itself."
>>
>> your "very good research evidence" is???
>
>
>
> To Marc
>
> I can only go off what I have personally found Marc, and that is some work
> for me. If it works or you think it works and your health feels better then
> some good has been gained from it.

And that's what's called a placebo effect.
> I have never said it would work for everybody, I am just quoting from
> personal experience.
You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is
it? That's what happens in the wide world, when you claim something you
have to back it up, now either provide the proof or withdraw the claim.

> So please get off my case,
Awwww is the poor Legion getting some flack because he/she/it/them can't
back up their claims? Think yourself lucky that you aren't standing for
an election and having a random selection of faceless nobodies second
guessing you.




you do not know me or what my values are Marc.

I don't need to know either you or your values, all I need is to see
that you will say something and then not back it up.


>
> Hagar
>
> PS. I could search the internet for replies but I prefer to quote from
> personal experience.


Fine, what is your personal experience of that "very good research
evidence"?

Hagar

"marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:n6-dnae8CfvWpTvbnZ2dnUVZ8tChnZ2d@bt.com...
> Hagar wrote:
>> "marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message

>>
>> To Marc
>>
>> I can only go off what I have personally found Marc, and that is some
>> work for me. If it works or you think it works and your health feels
>> better then some good has been gained from it.
>
> And that's what's called a placebo effect.


Ok, but if it worked then one would call it a sucsesss
>> I have never said it would work for everybody, I am just quoting from
>> personal experience.
> You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is it?
> That's what happens in the wide world, when you claim something you have
> to back it up, now either provide the proof or withdraw the claim.


I do not need to withdraw any claim Mark! I quoted it worked for me


Go on the internet Marc and look for yourself, one could claim some orthodox
medicine work,s for one person but not another, nothing in medicine works
the same for all
>
>> So please get off my case,


> Awwww is the poor Legion getting some flack because he/she/it/them can't
> back up their claims? Think yourself lucky that you aren't standing for an
> election and having a random selection of faceless nobodies second
> guessing you.


Just what are you rambling on about Marc, I have backed up my claims by
saying it worked for me
>
>
>
>
> you do not know me or what my values are Marc.
>
> I don't need to know either you or your values, all I need is to see that
> you will say something and then not back it up.

Yes I have backed it up Mark and now you are starting to look a fool


>>
>> PS. I could search the internet for replies but I prefer to quote from
>> personal experience.
>
>
> Fine, what is your personal experience of that "very good research
> evidence"?

As I have said Mark it has worked for me, that is my evidence, I am not
quoting from anything else, so what more can be said!

marc

Hagar wrote:
> "marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:n6-dnae8CfvWpTvbnZ2dnUVZ8tChnZ2d@bt.com...
>> Hagar wrote:
>>> "marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
>>> To Marc
>>>
>>> I can only go off what I have personally found Marc, and that is some
>>> work for me. If it works or you think it works and your health feels
>>> better then some good has been gained from it.
>> And that's what's called a placebo effect.
>
>
> Ok, but if it worked then one would call it a sucsesss


Wanna buy a bridge?
>>> I have never said it would work for everybody, I am just quoting from
>>> personal experience.
>> You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is it?
>> That's what happens in the wide world, when you claim something you have
>> to back it up, now either provide the proof or withdraw the claim.
>
>
> I do not need to withdraw any claim Mark! I quoted it worked for me

You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is
it? Working for you as a placebo is not research evidence, so either you
were mistaken, or that other thing, you know where someone tells an
untruth to try and win an argument. Which was it?
>
>
> Go on the internet Marc and look for yourself, one could claim some orthodox
> medicine work,s for one person but not another, nothing in medicine works
> the same for all

Fine, point me in the direction of this "very good research evidence"
on the internet.

>>> So please get off my case,
>
>
>> Awwww is the poor Legion getting some flack because he/she/it/them can't
>> back up their claims? Think yourself lucky that you aren't standing for an
>> election and having a random selection of faceless nobodies second
>> guessing you.
>
>
> Just what are you rambling on about Marc, I have backed up my claims by
> saying it worked for me


Your claim was that there was "very good research evidence" , you
haven't backed that up you have just confirmed that you succumbed to the
placebo effect.


>>
>>
>>
>> you do not know me or what my values are Marc.
>>
>> I don't need to know either you or your values, all I need is to see that
>> you will say something and then not back it up.
>
> Yes I have backed it up Mark and now you are starting to look a fool

Where have you backed up your claim that there was "very good research
evidence"?
>
>>> PS. I could search the internet for replies but I prefer to quote from
>>> personal experience.
>>
>> Fine, what is your personal experience of that "very good research
>> evidence"?
>
> As I have said Mark it has worked for me, that is my evidence,
That's not evidence, that's opinion, remember our discussion about how
much your opinions are worth?



I am not
> quoting from anything else, so what more can be said!

Ohh lots can be said, It could be said that you are a blowhard, it could
be said that there is more than one person hiding under "hagar" and
that halfway through this bit of bluster you have handed over to someone
with a different style of prose, it could be said that you have been
caught , again, making statements you can't back up.

Hagar

"marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a_ydnbE9NcEeoDvbnZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
> Hagar wrote:
>> "marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message

>>
>>>> To Marc
>>>>
>>>> I can only go off what I have personally found Marc, and that is some
>>>> work for me. If it works or you think it works and your health feels
>>>> better then some good has been gained from it.
>>> And that's what's called a placebo effect.
>>
>>
>> Ok, but if it worked then one would call it a success
>
>
> Wanna buy a bridge?


No thank you, at least not from you :-)


>>>> I have never said it would work for everybody, I am just quoting from
>>>> personal experience.
>>> You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is
>>> it? That's what happens in the wide world, when you claim something you
>>> have to back it up, now either provide the proof or withdraw the claim.


Excuse me Marc! I do not make world wide claims, sorry to burst that bubble
>>
>>
>> I do not need to withdraw any claim Mark! I quoted it worked for me
>
> You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is it?
> Working for you as a placebo is not research evidence, so either you were
> mistaken, or that other thing, you know where someone tells an untruth to
> try and win an argument. Which was it?
>>
>> I Have told no untruths, once again. and I am getting bored with typing
>> this, it worked for ME
>> Go on the internet Marc and look for yourself, one could claim some
>> orthodox medicine work,s for one person but not another, nothing in
>> medicine works the same for all
>
> Fine, point me in the direction of this "very good research evidence" on
> the internet.
>
Do your own research its quite easy, go into Google and type in what you
want to know, then sit for hours reading all the pros and cons.
>>
>>
>>> Awwww is the poor Legion getting some flack because he/she/it/them can't
>>> back up their claims? Think yourself lucky that you aren't standing for
>>> an election and having a random selection of faceless nobodies second
>>> guessing you.
>>
>> By the way Mark, I am a he, not a she, not an it, try and be civil and
>> stop your childish insults


>> Just what are you rambling on about Marc, I have backed up my claims by
>> saying it worked for me
>
>
> Your claim was that there was "very good research evidence" , you haven't
> backed that up you have just confirmed that you succumbed to the placebo
> effect.
>
>

Well if I did then the placebo effect worked for me! If a thing works and
your cured that is success is it not.
>>>

>>
>>>> PS. I could search the internet for replies but I prefer to quote from
>>>> personal experience.
>>>
>>> Fine, what is your personal experience of that "very good research
>>> evidence"?
>>
>> As I have said Mark it has worked for me, that is my evidence,
> That's not evidence, that's opinion, remember our discussion about how
> much your opinions are worth?
>
>
>
> I am not
>> quoting from anything else, so what more can be said!
>
> Ohh lots can be said, It could be said that you are a blowhard, it could
> be said that there is more than one person hiding under "hagar" and that
> halfway through this bit of bluster you have handed over to someone with a
> different style of prose, it could be said that you have been caught ,
> again, making statements you can't back up.
>

Marc I have backed it up, I will hide under Hagar if I wish and then read
your bluster and insults as you are being beaten in an argument, I have
backed up my statements by saying it worked for ME!. now what part of that
very simple statement do you not understand and I will explain it to you in
baby lingo.

Now go to bed with your bottle of milk as you have school in the morning

Oh by the way you had fifteen spelling mistakes this time Marc, best get
your English teacher to give you extra tuition.

marc

Hagar wrote:
> "marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a_ydnbE9NcEeoDvbnZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>> Hagar wrote:
>>> "marc" <initial.surname@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>
>>>>> To Marc
>>>>>
>>>>> I can only go off what I have personally found Marc, and that is some
>>>>> work for me. If it works or you think it works and your health feels
>>>>> better then some good has been gained from it.
>>>> And that's what's called a placebo effect.
>>>
>>> Ok, but if it worked then one would call it a success
>>
>> Wanna buy a bridge?
>
>
> No thank you, at least not from you :-)

You're finally talking some sense.
>
>
>>>>> I have never said it would work for everybody, I am just quoting from
>>>>> personal experience.
>>>> You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is
>>>> it? That's what happens in the wide world, when you claim something you
>>>> have to back it up, now either provide the proof or withdraw the claim.
>
>
> Excuse me Marc! I do not make world wide claims, sorry to burst that bubble

World wide is not the same as wide world. This is the wide world and you
made a claim. The claim was that there was "very good research
evidence" that homeopathy worked. PPOR


>>>
>>> I do not need to withdraw any claim Mark! I quoted it worked for me
>> You stated that there was "very good research evidence" , so where is it?
>> Working for you as a placebo is not research evidence, so either you were
>> mistaken, or that other thing, you know where someone tells an untruth to
>> try and win an argument. Which was it?
>>> I Have told no untruths, once again. and I am getting bored with typing
>>> this, it worked for ME
>>> Go on the internet Marc and look for yourself, one could claim some
>>> orthodox medicine work,s for one person but not another, nothing in
>>> medicine works the same for all
>> Fine, point me in the direction of this "very good research evidence" on
>> the internet.
>>
> Do your own research its quite easy, go into Google and type in what you
> want to know, then sit for hours reading all the pros and cons.

I don't need to do any research you are the one making the claim that
there was "very good research evidence" that homeopathy worked. I
provided proof that it doesn't PPOR
>>>
>>>> Awwww is the poor Legion getting some flack because he/she/it/them can't
>>>> back up their claims? Think yourself lucky that you aren't standing for
>>>> an election and having a random selection of faceless nobodies second
>>>> guessing you.
>>> By the way Mark, I am a he, not a she, not an it, try and be civil and
>>> stop your childish insults

You're a he at the moment, OK I can live with that, but there is a
reason I call you "Legion"

>
>
>>> Just what are you rambling on about Marc, I have backed up my claims by
>>> saying it worked for me
>>
>> Your claim was that there was "very good research evidence" , you haven't
>> backed that up you have just confirmed that you succumbed to the placebo
>> effect.
>>
>>
>
> Well if I did then the placebo effect worked for me! If a thing works and
> your cured that is success is it not.

Not the question, the question is and was where is the "very good
research evidence" that homeopathy works?
>
>>>>> PS. I could search the internet for replies but I prefer to quote from
>>>>> personal experience.
>>>> Fine, what is your personal experience of that "very good research
>>>> evidence"?
>>> As I have said Mark it has worked for me, that is my evidence,
>> That's not evidence, that's opinion, remember our discussion about how
>> much your opinions are worth?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not
>>> quoting from anything else, so what more can be said!
>> Ohh lots can be said, It could be said that you are a blowhard, it could
>> be said that there is more than one person hiding under "hagar" and that
>> halfway through this bit of bluster you have handed over to someone with a
>> different style of prose, it could be said that you have been caught ,
>> again, making statements you can't back up.
>>
>
> Marc I have backed it up,
No, you have stated your opinion, that it worked for you. That is not
backing up your claim of there was "very good research evidence" that
homeopathy works



I will hide under Hagar if I wish and then read
> your bluster and insults as you are being beaten in an argument, I have
> backed up my statements by saying it worked for ME!.

Working for you is not "very good research evidence" that homeopathy
works, and I'm still waiting for you to provide that evidence.




now what part of that
> very simple statement do you not understand and I will explain it to you in
> baby lingo.


Fine baby lingo will do where is the "very good research evidence"
that homeopathy works?
>
> Now go to bed with your bottle of milk as you have school in the morning
>
> Oh by the way you had fifteen spelling mistakes this time Marc, best get
> your English teacher to give you extra tuition.

From memory I have been involved in this NG for 13 years, in 1994 I
wasn't that bothered about my typing, I'm not now, but please feel free
to wriggle about speeling, it's the only thing you seem to have.

Richard Burnham

On 23 Jul, 09:35, "David Looser" <david.loo...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> "Richard T" <r1chardth0rpeNOS...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:q5j8a3hcv88pr4bi4kju74moemt1pi8qu3@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > Homeopaths can and do offer alternative treatment to many conditions.
> > And people are free to choose whether to accept that offer regardless
> > of whether it's quackery or not.
>
> As I discovered in a previous thread some years ago RB is utterly convinced
> that *only* modern, western, scientific medicine has any value at all. I am
> convinced that he would, if he could, ban all traditional or alternative
> medicines. The idea that people should have the choice passes him by.
>
> David.

Second-guessing me, are you? I don't propose to ban anything, only to
try to make people aware of the truth.

I referred only to BN and homeopathy, which it should not be
promoting, especially as in this case by blatantly false claims.

Homeopathy is mumbo-jumbo from over 200 years ago, when medical
science had hardly been born. During those 200 years, science has
discovered atomic theory, the molecular basis of matter, the cellular
basis of living things, the genetic basis of reproduction of both
cells and organisms, the quantum theory of chemical and biochemical
processes, the existence of bacteria and viruses, and a vast range of
diagnostic techniques, and has begun to design molecules to be used
against specific viruses.

And the homeopaths are still using the same mumbo-jumbo as they did
then (with the occasional scientific term borrowed and misused). How
come they haven't demonstrated that it works in 200 years?

Richard Burnham

Richard Burnham

> > What did you use Homeopathy for Bertie?
> >
> >
>
> It can be used for several things Duncan, he is a short list if you are
> interested
> What can homeopathy treat?
> Homeopathy has a wide application, from acute fevers, sore throats and
> toothache, to chronic illnesses such as arthritis, eczema, asthma, anxiety,
> mild depression and chronic fatigue syndrome. There has been some very good
> research evidence to support this

Do please enlighten us with this evidence, especially with regards to
the list of conditions you mention (which you have obviously copied
and pasted from some web site). This evidence does not seem to be
available generally, even to homeopaths, who always seem to be
seriously scared of any attempt to collect evidence.

About 20 years ago I went down with an acute fever (since you mention
it). I went to the doctor who used the inventions of science (blood
test, chemical stain, microscope) to diagnose that I had malaria
(contracted on a trip to Pakistan). (Incidentally, the aetiology of
malaria is an interesting scientific discovery that somehow
'alternative medicine' failed to make, along with the aetiology of
everything else.)

The doctor gave me a calculated dose of another invention of science,
chloroquine, which cleared the illness up in a few days. A good thing
too - malaria is a serious disease, common in much of the world, that
kills many people (I have known at least one person who died of it)
and even when it doesn't kill it can cause severe debilitation and
fever, repeatedly.

So, please tell me whether it would have been sensible of me to go to
a homeopath for an alternative in this case? Would I have got as good
a treatment from a homeopath? (If not, then homeopathy is no
'alternative' in this case.)

Richard Burnham