Doesnotcompute

Pip Asked:

>Well, do you - or don't you?

Y'know, I have no idea.
I think I probably do but it's entirely possible I don't.

<thinks>
<wafts smoke away from ears>

Best guess without going to the bike, is that my palm, thumb and index
finger circle the bar, leaving the other three fingers out ont the brake
lever.

Anyways, I figure that if I'm going faster than usual, I might neeed to
stop faster than usual, so the extra half a second advantage of having
fingers over the lever should be a good thing n'est pas?

--
Dnc

Ace

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:07:47 -0400, "Doesnotcompute"
<dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:

>Best guess without going to the bike, is that my palm, thumb and index
>finger circle the bar, leaving the other three fingers out ont the brake
>lever.

???

Wierd. Most people would surely use the index and middle fingers for
two-finger braking, no?

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
GSX-R1000K3, CB400F2
BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, BOTCdV#1

porl

"Ace" <b.rogers@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:808qe0tl2f9g3q8bk9hg9g97j79ciuc4cd@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:07:47 -0400, "Doesnotcompute"
> <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:
>
> >Best guess without going to the bike, is that my palm, thumb and index
> >finger circle the bar, leaving the other three fingers out ont the brake
> >lever.
>
> ???
>
> Wierd. Most people would surely use the index and middle fingers for
> two-finger braking, no?

I did on the Honda. I'm finding it's not enough on the Suze.

darsy

"Doesnotcompute" <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:

>Anyways, I figure that if I'm going faster than usual, I might neeed to
>stop faster than usual, so the extra half a second advantage of having
>fingers over the lever should be a good thing n'est pas?

this is bollocks, if you ask me. In a high speed emergency stop
situation, the thinking time will be much longer than the time
required to flick your fingers out to grab the lever (which will take
*way* less than 1/2 a second, I reckon).

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

Doesnotcompute

Ace wrote:

>Wierd. Most people would surely use the index and middle
>fingers for two-finger braking, no?

Quite possibly, but I find that uncomfortable.

I think.

update after lunchtime.

--
Dnc

flash@work

"darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
news:u98qe0d3v2h42ge55t4bn6b8tl2b0ga8rn@4ax.com...
> "Doesnotcompute" <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:
>
> >Anyways, I figure that if I'm going faster than usual, I might neeed to
> >stop faster than usual, so the extra half a second advantage of having
> >fingers over the lever should be a good thing n'est pas?
>
> this is bollocks, if you ask me. In a high speed emergency stop
> situation, the thinking time will be much longer than the time
> required to flick your fingers out to grab the lever (which will take
> *way* less than 1/2 a second, I reckon).
>
It will still take longer than if your fingers are already on the lever.
Also consider that Pip's fingers are probably webbed.

Champ

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:07:47 -0400, "Doesnotcompute"
<dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:

>Best guess without going to the bike, is that my palm, thumb and index
>finger circle the bar, leaving the other three fingers out ont the brake
>lever.

You are *very* odd if you are not using your index finger on the brake
lever.
--
Champ
GSX-R 1000, GPz 750 turbo, ZX7RR Endurance Racer x 2
GYASB#0 BotToS#2 BOTAFO(T|F)#35 WG*#1 DFV#8
Team UKRM Racing : www.team-ukrm.com

darsy

"flash@work" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:

>It will still take longer than if your fingers are already on the lever.

granted - I'm just not convinced that this "advantage" outweighs the
problems of unneeded panic braking - riding with your fingers off the
lever definitely makes you smoother, IME (I deliberately taught myself
to ride without fingers-on-levers a couple of years ago). I could
still do with being a lot smoother, mind you.

>Also consider that Pip's fingers are probably webbed.

ah - so that's why he wears mittens...

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

porl

"darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
news:u98qe0d3v2h42ge55t4bn6b8tl2b0ga8rn@4ax.com...
> "Doesnotcompute" <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:
>
> >Anyways, I figure that if I'm going faster than usual, I might neeed to
> >stop faster than usual, so the extra half a second advantage of having
> >fingers over the lever should be a good thing n'est pas?
>
> this is bollocks, if you ask me. In a high speed emergency stop
> situation, the thinking time will be much longer than the time
> required to flick your fingers out to grab the lever (which will take
> *way* less than 1/2 a second, I reckon).

At 80 mph that's 240 feet.[1]

[1] Obviously a made up figure but I bet it's the difference between being
splattered and not being splattered if you're within that distance without
your fingers covering the brake. Probably.

Anyway, aren't you the guy that doesn't breake on trackdays? I think you
just don't like breaking.

Doesnotcompute

Darsy said:

> In a high speed emergency stop
>situation, the thinking time will be much longer
>than the time required to flick your fingers out
>to grab the lever (which will take *way* less than
>1/2 a second, I reckon).

So the process of a lever uncovered stop would be:

realisation,
thinking/decision
move fingers from 'redundant' to 'ready'
application of lever

That extra step, which you're right would be less than half a second, also
introduces an element of potential error/delay - for example (assuming
fingers are wrapped around throttle) fingertips could catch the lever on
the way up. I'd also wonder whether trying to go from 'redundant' to
application in one swift movement /could/ result in a much more 'grabby'
manouevre.

Why spend the time getting into position, when that time could be spent
being progressive.

Wibble Flip etc.

--
Dnc

porl

"Doesnotcompute" <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote in message
news:7a7e51c9cca7e9f8caec4c5e2bff7fae@localhost.ta lkaboutmotorcycles.com...
> Darsy said:
>
> > In a high speed emergency stop
> >situation, the thinking time will be much longer
> >than the time required to flick your fingers out
> >to grab the lever (which will take *way* less than
> >1/2 a second, I reckon).
>
> So the process of a lever uncovered stop would be:
>
> realisation,
> thinking/decision
> move fingers from 'redundant' to 'ready'
> application of lever

Not necessarily. In an emergency situation you could replace the first two
with emotional reaction and the last two into one movement that's slightly
slower than if they were at the ready.

darsy

"Doesnotcompute" <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:

>So the process of a lever uncovered stop would be:
>
>realisation,
>thinking/decision
>move fingers from 'redundant' to 'ready'
>application of lever

nope - "muscle memory". When you've trained yourself to do it, your
fingers are already moving onto the lever before you've finished the
thinking part.

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

darsy

"porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Anyway, aren't you the guy that doesn't breake on trackdays? I think you
>just don't like breaking.

when did I claim to not brake on trackdays? I think the only thing I
said is that on the front straight at Snet, I found I could be both
smoother and faster on the double-apex right hander if I used only
engine braking.

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

porl

"darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
news:u4aqe0d97j2lsvj8uff0b01djpe06tgrli@4ax.com...
> "porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >Anyway, aren't you the guy that doesn't breake on trackdays? I think you
> >just don't like breaking.
>
> when did I claim to not brake on trackdays?

When did I claim that you did claim? I read your mind.

And why did I spell "brake" twice as "break"? S'ok, I got it. I'm a mong.

I just rang Bemsee btw. They're not taking anymore applications for this
season, unsurprsingly. They start again in November. Prior to that anyone
wanting to race will have to have completed a race school such as Ron
Haslam's, European Superbike, or their own that they run in February.

I was intending to do one anyway so it's no skin off my proboscis.

Doesnotcompute

Darsy said:

>"muscle memory". When you've trained yourself to do it,
>your fingers are already moving onto the lever before
>you've finished the thinking part.

I'm not sure whether I'm <unconvinced> or <concerned>(that this would lead
to grabbage rather than progressive braking).

Either way, each to their own.

--
Dnc

porl

"Doesnotcompute" <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote in message
news:0b9d5bef7ecb024f1fb9b55ed764065e@localhost.ta lkaboutmotorcycles.com...
> Darsy said:
>
> >"muscle memory". When you've trained yourself to do it,
> >your fingers are already moving onto the lever before
> >you've finished the thinking part.
>
> I'm not sure whether I'm <unconvinced> or <concerned>(that this would lead
> to grabbage rather than progressive braking).

Unconvinced about what? Once physical movements have been programmed in
(such as braking, turning a steering wheel, blocking a punch, etc) they
happen much faster than thought. Your second point about grabbage and panic
braking is valid but it's the difference between braking too fast (possible
front wheel low side) or not fast enough (possible triple salco and reverse
pike). If you're braking unnecessarily then that's another matter
altogether.

Doesnotcompute

Porl wrote:

> Unconvinced about what?

Whether muscle memory in this instance is actually a good thing or not.

--
Dnc

darsy

"porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Unconvinced about what? Once physical movements have been programmed in
>(such as braking, turning a steering wheel, blocking a punch, etc) they
>happen much faster than thought.

30,000 times faster.

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

porl

"darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ipgqe09abupvv5b3krlspk37rba8q7dths@4ax.com...
> "porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >Unconvinced about what? Once physical movements have been programmed in
> >(such as braking, turning a steering wheel, blocking a punch, etc) they
> >happen much faster than thought.
>
> 30,000 times faster.

43%

flash@work

"porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:2l4ue4F8ujeeU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ipgqe09abupvv5b3krlspk37rba8q7dths@4ax.com...
> > "porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Unconvinced about what? Once physical movements have been programmed in
> > >(such as braking, turning a steering wheel, blocking a punch, etc) they
> > >happen much faster than thought.
> >
> > 30,000 times faster.
>
> 43%
>
108 yards.

Ace

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:53:14 +0100, "porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:

>
>"darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ipgqe09abupvv5b3krlspk37rba8q7dths@4ax.com.. .
>> "porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Unconvinced about what? Once physical movements have been programmed in
>> >(such as braking, turning a steering wheel, blocking a punch, etc) they
>> >happen much faster than thought.
>>
>> 30,000 times faster.
>
>43%

Maybe I should just think about it...

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
GSX-R1000K3, CB400F2
BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, BOTCdV#1

Muck

Champ wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:07:47 -0400, "Doesnotcompute"
> <dncDELETE@ukbodyart.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Best guess without going to the bike, is that my palm, thumb and index
>>finger circle the bar, leaving the other three fingers out ont the brake
>>lever.
>
>
> You are *very* odd if you are not using your index finger on the brake
> lever.

Depending on how you've got your brake lever setup, you can actually get
your index finger trapped in between the grip and the lever you're
trying to pull back with the rest of your fingers.

This is not good if you need to grab a hand full of front brake.

It can be even worse if you only use the two middle fingers.

Grimly Curmudgeon

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "flash@work" <nospam@hotmail.com>
saying something like:

>
>"porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>news:2l4ue4F8ujeeU1@uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> "darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:ipgqe09abupvv5b3krlspk37rba8q7dths@4ax.com...
>> > "porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Unconvinced about what? Once physical movements have been programmed in
>> > >(such as braking, turning a steering wheel, blocking a punch, etc) they
>> > >happen much faster than thought.
>> >
>> > 30,000 times faster.
>>
>> 43%
>>
>108 yards.
>
2 aspirin and call me in the morning.

--

Dave

GS 850 x2 / SE 6a
SbS#6 DIAABTCOD#16 APOSTLE#6 FUB#3
FUB KotL OSOS#12? UKRMMA#19 COSOC#10

Pip

Grimly Curmudgeon struggled to ejaculate:

>It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
>drugs began to take hold. I remember "flash@work" <nospam@hotmail.com>
>saying something like:

>>"porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>news:2l4ue4F8ujeeU1@uni-berlin.de...
>>>
>>> "darsy" <darsy@sticky.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:ipgqe09abupvv5b3krlspk37rba8q7dths@4ax.com...
>>> > "porl" <porl@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >Unconvinced about what? Once physical movements have been programmed in
>>> > >(such as braking, turning a steering wheel, blocking a punch, etc) they
>>> > >happen much faster than thought.
>>> >
>>> > 30,000 times faster.
>>>
>>> 43%
>>>
>>108 yards.
>>
>2 aspirin and call me in the morning.

Two librium, three valium and eat plenty of boiled fish.

--
Pip, Ex - Hairy Gfedcker. RF 900RR, Ruff and Rattly.
WS* DFWAG#0 IbW#27* DIAABTCOD#15 GP#0 EKP FUB#4 MKA+E#3
ANORAK#8 MIRTTH#15 BOTAFOT/F#47/34a BONY#13 KotMIB# <space>
UKRMRM#14 TWA#2

Pip

darsy <darsy@sticky.co.uk> struggled to ejaculate:

>"flash@work" <nospam@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>It will still take longer than if your fingers are already on the lever.

My pint precisely. Fractions of a second saved can massively effect
outcomes, I reckon.
>
>granted - I'm just not convinced that this "advantage" outweighs the
>problems of unneeded panic braking - riding with your fingers off the
>lever definitely makes you smoother, IME (I deliberately taught myself
>to ride without fingers-on-levers a couple of years ago). I could
>still do with being a lot smoother, mind you.

That's the question. Is it worth retraining myself to ride with
fingers off levers?
>
>>Also consider that Pip's fingers are probably webbed.
>
>ah - so that's why he wears mittens...

Pathans, innit?

I wished I'd been wearing them on Sunday night - the temperature
inversions an hour later chilled my hands to the point of numbness
every time the road dipped. The sight of the mist in the fields
apparently being held back by the hedgerows from spilling onto the
motorway largely made up for it, mind.

--
Pip, Ex - Hairy Gfedcker. RF 900RR, Ruff and Rattly.
WS* DFWAG#0 IbW#27* DIAABTCOD#15 GP#0 EKP FUB#4 MKA+E#3
ANORAK#8 MIRTTH#15 BOTAFOT/F#47/34a BONY#13 KotMIB# <space>
UKRMRM#14 TWA#2

sweller

darsy wrote:

> riding with your fingers off the
> lever definitely makes you smoother, IME

AOL

--
Simon

Brighton | MYSOB: http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/
England | MZSOB: http://www.mztech.fsnet.co.uk/

sweller

Pip wrote:

> > ah - so that's why he wears mittens...
>
> Pathans, innit?
>
> I wished I'd been wearing them on Sunday night - the temperature
> inversions an hour later chilled my hands to the point of numbness
> every time the road dipped.

My new Berings are excellent. They're a touch too big without liners but
1112 miles in one /cold/ weekend and not a finger tingle.

> The sight of the mist in the fields
> apparently being held back by the hedgerows from spilling onto the
> motorway largely made up for it, mind.

I saw that recently the mist spilling down the cess (the bit between the
rails and the fence). Very satisfying, IYSWIM.

--
Simon

Brighton | MYSOB: http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/
England | MZSOB: http://www.mztech.fsnet.co.uk/

sweller

darsy wrote:

> when did I claim to not brake on trackdays? I think the only thing I
> said is that on the front straight at Snet, I found I could be both
> smoother and faster on the double-apex right hander if I used only
> engine braking.

I try to avoid touching the brakes at all. I find it makes for much
smoother and better thought out riding. Tends to make it quicker too.

--
Simon

Brighton | MYSOB: http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/
England | MZSOB: http://www.mztech.fsnet.co.uk/

sweller

porl wrote:

> Prior to that anyone
> wanting to race will have to have completed a race school such as Ron
> Haslam's, European Superbike, or their own that they run in February.

Have you got any prices? I wouldn't mind doing this anyway.

--
Simon

Brighton | MYSOB: http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/
England | MZSOB: http://www.mztech.fsnet.co.uk/

darsy

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:59:44 +0100, Pip <pip@ukrm.net> wrote:

>That's the question. Is it worth retraining myself to ride with
>fingers off levers?

well, if you ask me, "yes".

but, what do *I* know?

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

darsy

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:35:28 +0100, "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>darsy wrote:
>
>> riding with your fingers off the
>> lever definitely makes you smoother, IME
>
>AOL

and you of all people know that *I* could be smoother, so it's not
everything. But it's a start.

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

darsy

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:41:06 +0100, "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>darsy wrote:
>
>> when did I claim to not brake on trackdays? I think the only thing I
>> said is that on the front straight at Snet, I found I could be both
>> smoother and faster on the double-apex right hander if I used only
>> engine braking.
>
>I try to avoid touching the brakes at all. I find it makes for much
>smoother and better thought out riding. Tends to make it quicker too.

no, you're right - it's one of the areas of my riding that needs
attention.

--
darsy
r65ls|zx-7r|cbr929rr-1

sweller

darsy wrote:

> >> riding with your fingers off the
> >> lever definitely makes you smoother, IME
> >
> > AOL
>
> and you of all people know that I could be smoother, so it's not
> everything. But it's a start.

I would have said yes, given the amount of times I tried to crash into
the back of you. I also tried to skittle Ogden and Ozmick on several
occasions so I suspect it may be less to do with you or others...

I *really* tried to wipe out platty once. That was for different reasons
though.

--
Simon

Brighton | MYSOB: http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/
England | MZSOB: http://www.mztech.fsnet.co.uk/

Ben

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:41:55 +0100, "sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:

>porl wrote:
>
>> Prior to that anyone
>> wanting to race will have to have completed a race school such as Ron
>> Haslam's, European Superbike, or their own that they run in February.
>
>Have you got any prices? I wouldn't mind doing this anyway.

Around 300 notes for Haslam.

Good fun when I went, and I want to go back for the Fireblade course.

http://www.haslamraceschool.com/
--
GSXR1000 DIAABTCOD#11 BOTAFOT#75
"We take these risks, not to escape from life,
but to prevent life escaping from us."
http://www.bensales.com

platypus

sweller wrote:
> darsy wrote:
>
>> >> riding with your fingers off the
>> >> lever definitely makes you smoother, IME
>> >
>> > AOL
>>
>> and you of all people know that I could be smoother, so it's not
>> everything. But it's a start.
>
> I would have said yes, given the amount of times I tried to crash into
> the back of you. I also tried to skittle Ogden and Ozmick on several
> occasions so I suspect it may be less to do with you or others...
>
> I *really* tried to wipe out platty once. That was for different
> reasons though.

I'm sure I deserved it.

--
Platypus

"thang"

sweller

platypus wrote:

> > I really tried to wipe out platty once. That was for different
> > reasons though.
>
> I'm sure I deserved it.

I was gazing at the church in the cliff and you had the temerity to stop
at a red traffic light. So yes, you were asking for it.

--
Simon

Brighton | MYSOB: http://www.sweller.co.uk/sob/
England | MZSOB: http://www.mztech.fsnet.co.uk/

Porl

"sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0dkjarf19lpn005@news.individual.net...
> porl wrote:
>
> > Prior to that anyone
> > wanting to race will have to have completed a race school such as Ron
> > Haslam's, European Superbike, or their own that they run in February.
>
> Have you got any prices? I wouldn't mind doing this anyway.

It's between 200 and 300 quid depending on the tuition and track,
Silverstone GP being expensive and Snetters being quite cheap. Plus, Bemsee
do there own tuition thing in february for 199.

I think you should do it. If you're interested you're going to end up riding
for Team ukrm (Elite) anyway sooner or later.

platypus

sweller wrote:
> platypus wrote:
>
>> > I really tried to wipe out platty once. That was for different
>> > reasons though.
>>
>> I'm sure I deserved it.
>
> I was gazing at the church in the cliff and you had the temerity to
> stop at a red traffic light. So yes, you were asking for it.

Idar-Oberstein, the town with the wonderful twisty hill on the way out.

<pauses for a couple of minutes, reviewing the highlights of the Frankfurt
run>

North Africa's going to be /brilliant/.

--
Platypus

"thang"

darsy

"sweller" <ng@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

>darsy wrote:
>
>> and you of all people know that I could be smoother, so it's not
>> everything. But it's a start.
>
>I would have