Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine?

Maybe this question is not appropiate here and I'm not a mechanic. - but I
was reading about the 500cc grand prix in the mid 70's, basically how the MV
Agusta could no longer compete with Japanese 2-stroke bikes. MV set about
developing a four cylinder engine to increase power but still four-stroke
and still unable to beat the Japanese bikes. What I'm wondering why didn't
they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards

Pat wrote:
> Maybe this question is not appropiate here and I'm not a mechanic. -
> but I was reading about the 500cc grand prix in the mid 70's,
> basically how the MV Agusta could no longer compete with Japanese
> 2-stroke bikes. MV set about developing a four cylinder engine to
> increase power but still four-stroke and still unable to beat the
> Japanese bikes. What I'm wondering why didn't they simply develop a 2
> stoke engine instead. Regards

Product Marketing and also at that time the science of how 2 stroke
induction operated was a black art understood by only a few.

--
Hog
'96 Bastard B12 '89 R100RS '81 XS650 '78 RD400

In article <442270e1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, adslts57@tpg.com.au
(Pat) wrote:

> What I'm wondering why didn't
> they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards

As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch.
Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a
matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese
got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and
information.

Ken Young

kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk writes
>In article <442270e1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, adslts57@tpg.com.au
>(Pat) wrote:
>
>> What I'm wondering why didn't
>> they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards
>
> As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch.
>Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a
>matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese
>got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and
>information.
>
Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well?
--
Bob Scott

Bob Scott wrote:
> kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk writes
> >In article <442270e1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, adslts57@tpg.com.au
> >(Pat) wrote:
> >
> >> What I'm wondering why didn't
> >> they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards
> >
> > As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch.
> >Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a
> >matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese
> >got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and
> >information.
> >
> Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well?

I think he did. I read an interview or something with Walter Kaaden
(the talented MZ engineer who developed disc valves and expansion
chambers) some years ago, and apparently he never forgave Degner for
nicking all his work. Kaaden only died a few years ago.

Amazing to think that MZ was that far advanced.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bob Scott <bob@bobandaileen.co.uk>
saying something like:

>> As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch.
>>Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a
>>matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese
>>got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and
>>information.
>>
>Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well?

He kept going straight at the first corner, you mean? Through an exit
lane and straight into the back of a waiting Japanese Transit?
--
Dave
GS850x2 XS650 SE6a
I demand nothing of you except that you amuse me.

Folding@Home Team UKRM
http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/m...&teamnum=47957

Grimly Curmudgeon said...
> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
> drugs began to take hold. I remember Bob Scott <bob@bobandaileen.co.uk>
> saying something like:
>
> >> As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch.
> >>Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a
> >>matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese
> >>got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and
> >>information.
> >>
> >Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well?
>
> He kept going straight at the first corner, you mean? Through an exit
> lane and straight into the back of a waiting Japanese Transit?

Suzuki Carry-Van. He defected to the Big S.

--
Lozzo
GSX-R1000 K1
GSF600(S)W
GPZ500S E1 (FS: 350 quid and it's yours)

"Timo Geusch" wrote

> Not to mention that motorcycles were kind of the count's passion and
> hobby.

Plus the eldest son of the original founder (the count) died in 1971
which took the motorcycling passion from the company. And Italy was also
going through a period of severe economic crisis. Lots of subsidiary
reasons!

--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Thanks for all the information - it's just a pity that the Japanese came to
dominate racing and the motorcycle market in such a way.

"Andy Wegg" <andrew_wegg@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5838c7a891e0c6de0a5fead845b087c.20410@mygate .mailgate.org...
> "Timo Geusch" wrote
>
>> Not to mention that motorcycles were kind of the count's passion and
>> hobby.
>
> Plus the eldest son of the original founder (the count) died in 1971
> which took the motorcycling passion from the company. And Italy was also
> going through a period of severe economic crisis. Lots of subsidiary
> reasons!
>
>
> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Pat <adslts57@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> Thanks for all the information - it's just a pity that the Japanese came to
> dominate racing and the motorcycle market in such a way.

And Ducati never won anything?

--
Trophy 1200 750SS CB400F CD250 x2
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....

In article
<1143135106.564634.179970@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups .com>,
chateau.murray@btinternet.com (rnet.com) wrote:

> Amazing to think that MZ was that far advanced.

Even more amazing when you realise that at the same time Kaadan
was developing engines for scrambling. However MZ originated as
the East German part of DKW which had a long history of racing
two strokes albeit supercharged split singles. Those were the
ones that could be heard in Liverpool when the TT races were on,
or so the story goes. Of course Honda also stuck with four
strokes and kept adding cylinders. Something that was a pity was
the Moto Guzzi withdrawal from racing. Their 500cc V8 still had
scope for development.

Ken Young

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:30:22 +1100, "Pat" <adslts57@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>Thanks for all the information - it's just a pity that the Japanese came to
>dominate racing and the motorcycle market in such a way.

Why?

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2
`\|/`
`

Pat wrote:

> Thanks for all the information - it's just a pity that the Japanese came
> to dominate racing and the motorcycle market in such a way.

Please do us and especially yourself a favour and consult the Fine FAQ for
this newsgroups regarding the posting style.

Thanks.

--
Morini Corsaro 125 | CB450K4 | R1150GSA | XL250 Motosport x2 | 900SSD
K75S Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10
The UKRMC FAQ: http://www.unixconsult.co.uk/bike/ukrmcfaq.html
"Je profite du paysage"

Well, you don't want one country dominating an entire industry.

"Ace" <seesig@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:lfb82219v6sltqlfajp3f04ihmhr0f4eo4@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 17:30:22 +1100, "Pat" <adslts57@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>Thanks for all the information - it's just a pity that the Japanese came
>>to
>>dominate racing and the motorcycle market in such a way.
>
> Why?
>
> --
> _______
> .'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
> \`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3
> `\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2
> `\|/`
> `

"Lozzo" <lozzo@speedyspic.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e9085d8ff96315e989d9d@news.individual.ne t...
> I suppose you were dead against the British dominating motorcycle
> manufacture and sport before the Japanese entered the fray?
>

Oh, I don't think so - if you're going to produce rubbish, you might as well
produce world-beating rubbish... ;-)

Ron Robinson

	#1
Pat	Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? Maybe this question is not appropiate here and I'm not a mechanic. - but I was reading about the 500cc grand prix in the mid 70's, basically how the MV Agusta could no longer compete with Japanese 2-stroke bikes. MV set about developing a four cylinder engine to increase power but still four-stroke and still unable to beat the Japanese bikes. What I'm wondering why didn't they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards

	#2
Hog	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? Pat wrote: > Maybe this question is not appropiate here and I'm not a mechanic. - > but I was reading about the 500cc grand prix in the mid 70's, > basically how the MV Agusta could no longer compete with Japanese > 2-stroke bikes. MV set about developing a four cylinder engine to > increase power but still four-stroke and still unable to beat the > Japanese bikes. What I'm wondering why didn't they simply develop a 2 > stoke engine instead. Regards Product Marketing and also at that time the science of how 2 stroke induction operated was a black art understood by only a few. -- Hog '96 Bastard B12 '89 R100RS '81 XS650 '78 RD400

	#3
kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? In article <442270e1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, adslts57@tpg.com.au (Pat) wrote: > What I'm wondering why didn't > they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch. Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and information. Ken Young

	#4
Bob Scott	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk writes >In article <442270e1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, adslts57@tpg.com.au >(Pat) wrote: > >> What I'm wondering why didn't >> they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards > > As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch. >Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a >matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese >got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and >information. > Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well? -- Bob Scott

	#5
TOG@Toil, chateau.murray@btinternet.com,	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? Bob Scott wrote: > kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk writes > >In article <442270e1$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, adslts57@tpg.com.au > >(Pat) wrote: > > > >> What I'm wondering why didn't > >> they simply develop a 2 stoke engine instead. Regards > > > > As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch. > >Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a > >matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese > >got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and > >information. > > > Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well? I think he did. I read an interview or something with Walter Kaaden (the talented MZ engineer who developed disc valves and expansion chambers) some years ago, and apparently he never forgave Degner for nicking all his work. Kaaden only died a few years ago. Amazing to think that MZ was that far advanced.

	#6
Grimly Curmudgeon	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Bob Scott <bob@bobandaileen.co.uk> saying something like: >> As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch. >>Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a >>matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese >>got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and >>information. >> >Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well? He kept going straight at the first corner, you mean? Through an exit lane and straight into the back of a waiting Japanese Transit? -- Dave GS850x2 XS650 SE6a I demand nothing of you except that you amuse me. Folding@Home Team UKRM http://vspx27.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/m...&teamnum=47957

	#7
Lozzo	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? Grimly Curmudgeon said... > We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the > drugs began to take hold. I remember Bob Scott <bob@bobandaileen.co.uk> > saying something like: > > >> As a guess, because they would have had to start from scratch. > >>Developing a racing two stroke was not simple. It's not simply a > >>matter of sticking disc valves into the crankcase. The Japanese > >>got a head start when a MZ rider defected with plans and > >>information. > >> > >Did Ernst not actually take the bike with him as well? > > He kept going straight at the first corner, you mean? Through an exit > lane and straight into the back of a waiting Japanese Transit? Suzuki Carry-Van. He defected to the Big S. -- Lozzo GSX-R1000 K1 GSF600(S)W GPZ500S E1 (FS: 350 quid and it's yours)

	#8
Andy Wegg	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? "Timo Geusch" wrote > Not to mention that motorcycles were kind of the count's passion and > hobby. Plus the eldest son of the original founder (the count) died in 1971 which took the motorcycling passion from the company. And Italy was also going through a period of severe economic crisis. Lots of subsidiary reasons! -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

	#10
The Older Gentleman	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? Pat <adslts57@tpg.com.au> wrote: > Thanks for all the information - it's just a pity that the Japanese came to > dominate racing and the motorcycle market in such a way. And Ducati never won anything? -- Trophy 1200 750SS CB400F CD250 x2 GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3 BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....

	#13
tnewsSPAMMENOT@unixconsult.co.uk	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? Pat wrote: > Thanks for all the information - it's just a pity that the Japanese came > to dominate racing and the motorcycle market in such a way. Please do us and especially yourself a favour and consult the Fine FAQ for this newsgroups regarding the posting style. Thanks. -- Morini Corsaro 125 \| CB450K4 \| R1150GSA \| XL250 Motosport x2 \| 900SSD K75S Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* Â* BOTAFOF #33 TWA#10 The UKRMC FAQ: http://www.unixconsult.co.uk/bike/ukrmcfaq.html "Je profite du paysage"

	#15
R.N. Robinson	Re: Why didn't MV develop 2 stroke engine? "Lozzo" <lozzo@speedyspic.co.uk> wrote in message news:MPG.1e9085d8ff96315e989d9d@news.individual.ne t... > I suppose you were dead against the British dominating motorcycle > manufacture and sport before the Japanese entered the fray? > Oh, I don't think so - if you're going to produce rubbish, you might as well produce world-beating rubbish... ;-) Ron Robinson