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Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
I am presently building a café racer using a Commando engine in a
Featherbed frame (see http://www.pbase.com/jeandr/cafe_racer&page=all for pics). The local shop I want the job to be done can do the job if they are supplied with the right information but since they are car guys, they have no data about motorcycles and especially old motorcycles. As can be seen, the engine I will be using is a Commando, probably a 750 (not the crankcases presently in the frame) with the engine leaning forward à la Commando. The only information about engine balance I have been able to find so far is that for an Atlas, the balance factor should be 84% and I was told that a Commando engine in an Atlas frame that factor should be 74%. I was asked by the engine shop what should the reciprocating and rotating factors should be but I have no idea what they are talking about and I have so far not found anything on the Internet about engine balance. I had an article about engine balance I clipped from an old magazine but it was lost in a flooded basement a few years ago, I remember a picture showing a connecting rod with the big end on a scale and the small end resting on a pedestal, off the scale, I also remember a picture with a crank on which weights were attached in a balancing machine (rotating) and another showing someone drilling a counterweight, that is my knowledge of balancing. The question I have is how are the weights attached to the crankshaft determined? and what should the balance factor be for a Commando engine installed in a featherbed frame, 74% or 84%? How are reciprocating and rotating weights determined? what should I give to the engine repair shop for information that they could understand and properly balance my crankshaft? Many questions, I hope someone can help me or point me to someone who can, Jean PS I have some pictures of vintage races in a few galleries at http://www.pbase.com/jeandr/root if anyone has interest in those things. The pictures were taken on 3 tracks in Canada (Shubenacadie in Nova Scotia, Saint-Eustache in Québec and Mosport in Ontario) |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
In article <6oidnYds2YG6V4_bnZ2dnUVZ_rSjnZ2d@giganews.com>,
try_to@find.it (jean) wrote: > The question I have is how are the weights attached to the crankshaft > determined? That I can answer they are determined as a percentage of the piston and and connecting rod weight. The actual figure can vary from anything to zero and 100 per cent with something between 70 and 90% being common. Ultimately it is a matter of experimentation with a particular engine and frame to get the best result. You can separate things into reciprocating and rotating factors but I have never seen it done for motorcycle engines. I cant give any specific information but in most cases balance was adjusted by drilling holes in the flywheels and filling them with lead. Or by drilling the holes in big end side of the wheel and using alloy plugs. Ken Young |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, "jean" <try...@find.it> wrote:
> I am presently building a café racer using a Commando engine in a > Featherbed frame (seehttp://www.pbase.com/jeandr/cafe_racer&page=allfor > pics). Why belt final drive? -- Simon |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
"sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:1175966268.154466.238000@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com... On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, "jean" <try...@find.it> wrote: > I am presently building a café racer using a Commando engine in a > Featherbed frame (seehttp://www.pbase.com/jeandr/cafe_racer&page=allfor > pics). Why belt final drive? For one, it will be different, second a belt is a lot cleaner than a chain and third, a belt can last longer than the engine, they are now guaranteed for life on HDs. One of the drawbacks is that it is harder to change ratios and the pulley weighs more than a sprocket. Jean |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
"jean" <try_to@find.it> wrote in message news:-4idnf9pPpQ5oKnbnZ2dnUVZ_segnZ2d@giganews.com... > > "sweller" <sweller@mztech.fsnet.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de > news:1175966268.154466.238000@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com... > On Apr 3, 11:42 pm, "jean" <try...@find.it> wrote: > > > I am presently building a café racer using a Commando engine in a > > Featherbed frame (seehttp://www.pbase.com/jeandr/cafe_racer&page=allfor > > pics). > > Why belt final drive? > > For one, it will be different, second a belt is a lot cleaner than a chain > and third, a belt can last longer than the engine, they are now guaranteed > for life on HDs. That doesn't say much for the life of the engines. I've always wondered how the belt would cope with a pebble getting thrown in, possibly from the front wheel, total enclosure maybe? Oily One of the drawbacks is that it is harder to change ratios > and the pulley weighs more than a sprocket. > > Jean > > > |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
On or around Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:19:16 +0100, "Oily"
<martinhill100@nospambtconnect.com> enlightened us thusly: >That doesn't say much for the life of the engines. I've always wondered how >the belt would cope with a pebble getting thrown in, possibly from the front >wheel, total enclosure maybe? Harley don't enclose 'em. The belts are pretty tough, I reckon they'd just spit the pebble out again. -- Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
"Austin Shackles" wrote......... > > I've always wondered how > >the belt would cope with a pebble getting thrown in, possibly from the front > >wheel, total enclosure maybe? > > Harley don't enclose 'em. The belts are pretty tough, I reckon they'd just > spit the pebble out again. > I know they don't, just wondered how they would cope, must be okay. Anyhow, how do you know so much about 'Ardly Movin'sons, I thought you didn't like 'em. First time I had a ride on one was last year (three actually, a 1200 and two 1450s), I reckon I could live with one. Oily |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
On or around Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:44:48 +0100, "Oily"
<martinhill100@nospambtconnect.com> enlightened us thusly: > >"Austin Shackles" wrote......... > >> > I've always wondered how >> >the belt would cope with a pebble getting thrown in, possibly from the >front >> >wheel, total enclosure maybe? > >> >> Harley don't enclose 'em. The belts are pretty tough, I reckon they'd >just >> spit the pebble out again. >> >I know they don't, just wondered how they would cope, must be okay. >Anyhow, how do you know so much about 'Ardly Movin'sons, I thought you >didn't like 'em. First time I had a ride on one was last year (three >actually, a 1200 and two 1450s), I reckon I could live with one. I've nothing much against 'em. They're a bit like the bike equivalent of a land rover... -- Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
On 3 Apr, 23:42, "jean" <try...@find.it> wrote:
> I am presently building a café racer using a Commando engine in a > Featherbed frame (seehttp://www.pbase.com/jeandr/cafe_racer&page=allfor > pics). The local shop I want the job to be done can do the job if they are > supplied with the right information but since they are car guys, they have > no data about motorcycles and especially old motorcycles. > ..... > > Many questions, I hope someone can help me or point me to someone who can, > > Jean Have you spoken to either Mick Hemmings Mick Hemmings Motorcycles 72-74 Overstone Road Northampton NN1 3JS Northamptonshire UK Tel: 01604 638505 Fax: 01604 631838 or Les Emery at Norvil Motorcycles Norvil Motorcycle Company Ltd. Corner Garage, 96 - 98 Cannock Road, Chase Terrace, Burntwood, Staffordshire. WS7 1JP. England Telephone: +44 (0) 1543 278008 Facsimilie: +44 (0) 1543 274775 (http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/). Between them, there probably isn't much they don't know about Norton twins and fitting a Commando engine into a Featherbed frame is fairly common, at least, one of my mates has done it but I can't remember if he bothered much about the balance factor! Mark |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:23:19 +0100, Austin Shackles
<austinDITCHTHISFORBETTERRESULTS@ddol-las.net> wrote: >>Anyhow, how do you know so much about 'Ardly Movin'sons, I thought you >>didn't like 'em. >I've nothing much against 'em. They're a bit like the bike equivalent of a >land rover... <nods> Yep - they're both appalling vehicles. -- Champ |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
Champ wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:23:19 +0100, Austin Shackles > <austinDITCHTHISFORBETTERRESULTS@ddol-las.net> wrote: > >>> Anyhow, how do you know so much about 'Ardly Movin'sons, I thought >>> you didn't like 'em. > >> I've nothing much against 'em. They're a bit like the bike >> equivalent of a land rover... > > <nods> > > Yep - they're both appalling vehicles. <fondles Ural distractedly> -- platypus "Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative." |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Champ
<news@champ.org.uk> typed >On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:23:19 +0100, Austin Shackles ><austinDITCHTHISFORBETTERRESULTS@ddol-las.net> wrote: > >>>Anyhow, how do you know so much about 'Ardly Movin'sons, I thought you >>>didn't like 'em. > >>I've nothing much against 'em. They're a bit like the bike equivalent of a >>land rover... > ><nods> > >Yep - they're both appalling vehicles. Remind me to introduce you to the Landcruiser. You're going to *hate* it. -- Wicked Uncle Nigel - Podium Placed Ducati Race Engineer as featured in Performance Bikes and Fast Bikes WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41 SBS#39 OMF#6 Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner", Honda GL1000K2 (Falling apart) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big" Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha Vmax Honda ST1100 wiv trailer |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
"Austin Shackles" <austinDITCHTHISFORBETTERRESULTS@ddol-las.net> a écrit dans le message de news:ecu933hmjh5ohb35jpf440kc01ko7ir3fn@4ax.com... > On or around Sun, 29 Apr 2007 12:19:16 +0100, "Oily" > <martinhill100@nospambtconnect.com> enlightened us thusly: > > >That doesn't say much for the life of the engines. I've always wondered how > >the belt would cope with a pebble getting thrown in, possibly from the front > >wheel, total enclosure maybe? > > Harley don't enclose 'em. The belts are pretty tough, I reckon they'd just > spit the pebble out again. > -- The belts are indeed very tough and the pulleys are too. I had to machine the pulley I have to take it down from 1½" in width to 21mm for the belt I am using. The pulley simply ate a HSS cutting tool, I had to use a carbide tipped cutter and be very gentle with it. BTW, the rear pulley is aluminium, the front is tempered steel. I think this whole drivetrain will outlast the bike ;-) Jean |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
"mhall" <mshall@lineone.net> a écrit dans le message de news:1177935057.220554.131500@n76g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com... On 3 Apr, 23:42, "jean" <try...@find.it> wrote: > I am presently building a café racer using a Commando engine in a > Featherbed frame (seehttp://www.pbase.com/jeandr/cafe_racer&page=allfor > pics). The local shop I want the job to be done can do the job if they are > supplied with the right information but since they are car guys, they have > no data about motorcycles and especially old motorcycles. > ..... > > Many questions, I hope someone can help me or point me to someone who can, > > Jean Have you spoken to either Mick Hemmings Mick Hemmings Motorcycles 72-74 Overstone Road Northampton NN1 3JS Northamptonshire UK Tel: 01604 638505 Fax: 01604 631838 or Les Emery at Norvil Motorcycles Norvil Motorcycle Company Ltd. Corner Garage, 96 - 98 Cannock Road, Chase Terrace, Burntwood, Staffordshire. WS7 1JP. England Telephone: +44 (0) 1543 278008 Facsimilie: +44 (0) 1543 274775 (http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/). Between them, there probably isn't much they don't know about Norton twins and fitting a Commando engine into a Featherbed frame is fairly common, at least, one of my mates has done it but I can't remember if he bothered much about the balance factor! Mark I got this from a Norton tuner. "Weigh everything that is attached to the crankshaft (pistons, rods, bolts, caps, pins, clips...) take 84% of this weight and this is what needs to be attached to the crankshaft by the engine balancing operator, then balance by drilling material away on the heavy side." According to him, 84% is very good for a Commando engine in a Featherbed frame. He had it at 74% and it shook too much, after balancing to 84% the engine could be revved to 8500 rpm without too much vibration. Jean |
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Re: Looking for information on engine balancing for a Norton
On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:35:03 +0100, Wicked Uncle Nigel
<wun@wicked-uncle-nigel.me.uk> wrote: >>>>Anyhow, how do you know so much about 'Ardly Movin'sons, I thought you >>>>didn't like 'em. >> >>>I've nothing much against 'em. They're a bit like the bike equivalent of a >>>land rover... >> >><nods> >> >>Yep - they're both appalling vehicles. > >Remind me to introduce you to the Landcruiser. > >You're going to *hate* it. I probably won't you know. I drove a proper outback-style Landcruiser (before they morphed into air-conned and leathered pimp-mobiles) offroad for three days on Fraser Island in Queensland in 89, and it was great. Of course, that was doing what it was designed to do; rarely the case for landrovers driven in England. -- Champ neal at champ dot org dot uk |
