| #1 | |
|
|
Here's Jack!
Here's Jack!
A red flower by any other name: The Green Man, the Risen Man, Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting… Until she appears - young, not strong, not knowing spring, the Corn King, has found her. Winter. She's thirteen. She drops, in an alley, a mewling thing and runs for mercy to the rain. Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, Red Jack - what's in a name? They are all the same. Rob -- Rob Evans When I see a swine I reach for 45-calibre pearls. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
| #2 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
Rob wrote:
> Here's Jack! > > A red flower by any other name: > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting… > > Until she appears - young, > not strong, not knowing spring, > the Corn King, has found her. > > Winter. > > She's thirteen. She drops, > in an alley, a mewling thing > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > Red Jack - what's in a name? > They are all the same. > > Rob > Are the symbols a little too private? I get something, to be sure, but "It"? -- -------(m+ ~/  )_|I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. http://scrawlmark.org |
| #3 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
"Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlmark@arvig.net> wrote in message news:YqSdnTXqqbT9pu3bnZ2dnUVZ_vXinZ2d@onvoy.com... > Rob wrote: > >> Here's Jack! >> >> A red flower by any other name: >> The Green Man, the Risen Man, >> Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting. >> >> Until she appears - young, >> not strong, not knowing spring, >> the Corn King, has found her. >> >> Winter. >> >> She's thirteen. She drops, >> in an alley, a mewling thing >> and runs for mercy to the rain. >> >> Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >> Red Jack - what's in a name? >> They are all the same. >> >> Rob >> > > Are the symbols a little too private? It is like he is saying he's an amateur. Like you. Rob found his /place/. *Winter* -- AJ - http://Here.Nu http://Midis.Here.Nu http://Art.Here.Nu > I get something, to be sure, but "It"? > > -- > -------(m+ > ~/ )_|> I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. > http://scrawlmark.org |
| #4 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
"Amadeus Jinn" wrote: > "Dennis M. Hammes" wrote: > > > Are the symbols a little too private? > > It is like he is saying he's an amateur. > > Like you. > > Rob found his /place/. > > *Winter* Senility? -- "Ozone Stigmata" by Will Dockery-Henry Conley (video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxfl_7KvFcc "The Ride (Combat Zone)" by Will Dockery-Dennis Beck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxfl_7KvFcc > AJ - http://Here.Nu > http://Midis.Here.Nu > http://Art.Here.Nu > > > I get something, to be sure, but "It"? |
| #5 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 13, 1:46 pm, "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote:
> Rob wrote: > > Here's Jack! > > > A red flower by any other name: > > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... > > > Until she appears - young, > > not strong, not knowing spring, > > the Corn King, has found her. > > > Winter. > > > She's thirteen. She drops, > > in an alley, a mewling thing > > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > > Red Jack - what's in a name? > > They are all the same. > > > Rob > > Are the symbols a little too private? > I get something, to be sure, but "It"? Makes me wonder if Rob read the same article I did, written by someone called Jack about what it means to be called Jack. It was a good article but damned if I can remember when, where, who. Aside from that, it's obviously Blake's sick Rose for those with Upgraded Sensibilities. Worked for me (esp, last line, and the wonderfully arch "Corn King"), so I guess (some of) it's backwardly compatible. |
| #6 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
In article <PXp3ZjAsRtbGFwL4@mla001.demon.co.uk>, Rob says...
> >Here's Jack! > >A red flower by any other name: >The Green Man, the Risen Man, >Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting… > >Until she appears - young, >not strong, not knowing spring, >the Corn King, has found her. > >Winter. > >She's thirteen. She drops, >in an alley, a mewling thing >and runs for mercy to the rain. I like the sounds in this stanza the best (thirteen/alley/mewling). Not sure I agree with the comma after "drops". If you leave the comma out is there an alternative understanding that blossoms? Interesting turn of phrase "runs...to the rain". Rain is all around, not a destination, right? Is she running to the beat? I like that even if you didn't intend it. Karla >Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >Red Jack - what's in a name? >They are all the same. > >Rob > -- -- |
| #7 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
In article <1181769386.590305.223690@d30g2000prg.googlegroups .com>, OB says...
> >On Jun 13, 1:46 pm, "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote: >> Rob wrote: >> > Here's Jack! >> >> > A red flower by any other name: >> > The Green Man, the Risen Man, >> > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... >> >> > Until she appears - young, >> > not strong, not knowing spring, >> > the Corn King, has found her. >> >> > Winter. >> >> > She's thirteen. She drops, >> > in an alley, a mewling thing >> > and runs for mercy to the rain. >> >> > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >> > Red Jack - what's in a name? >> > They are all the same. >> >> > Rob >> >> Are the symbols a little too private? >> I get something, to be sure, but "It"? > >Makes me wonder if Rob read the same article I did, written by someone >called Jack about what it means to be called Jack. It was a good >article but damned if I can remember when, where, who. Aside from >that, it's obviously Blake's sick Rose for those with Upgraded >Sensibilities. To what does your "it's" refer? Rob's poem? If so, how so? Have I missed an "English" understanding of "The Sick Rose"? TIA, Karla >Worked for me (esp, last line, and the wonderfully arch "Corn King"), >so I guess (some of) it's backwardly compatible. > > -- -- |
| #8 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 13, 5:14 pm, Karla <karl...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote:
> In article <1181769386.590305.223...@d30g2000prg.googlegroups .com>, OB says... > > > > > > > > >On Jun 13, 1:46 pm, "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote: > >> Rob wrote: > >> > Here's Jack! > > >> > A red flower by any other name: > >> > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > >> > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... > > >> > Until she appears - young, > >> > not strong, not knowing spring, > >> > the Corn King, has found her. > > >> > Winter. > > >> > She's thirteen. She drops, > >> > in an alley, a mewling thing > >> > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > >> > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > >> > Red Jack - what's in a name? > >> > They are all the same. > > >> > Rob > > >> Are the symbols a little too private? > >> I get something, to be sure, but "It"? > > >Makes me wonder if Rob read the same article I did, written by someone > >called Jack about what it means to be called Jack. It was a good > >article but damned if I can remember when, where, who. Aside from > >that, it's obviously Blake's sick Rose for those with Upgraded > >Sensibilities. > > To what does your "it's" refer? Rob's poem? If so, how so? Have I missed an > "English" understanding of "The Sick Rose"? I doubt it. The Sick Rose can be read as many things, but girl + unwanted pregnancy offers itself easily. On reflection, though, the "red flower" of line one needn't be a rose at all. It might be the onset of menstruation. Or both. Hell, ask Rob. For some reason, the poem made me think of Cerne Abbas. > > TIA, > > Karla > > >Worked for me (esp, last line, and the wonderfully arch "Corn King"), > >so I guess (some of) it's backwardly compatible. > > -- > --- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - |
| #9 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 12, 10:14 am, Rob <r...@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Here's Jack! > > A red flower by any other name: > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... > > Until she appears - young, > not strong, not knowing spring, > the Corn King, has found her. > > Winter. > > She's thirteen. She drops, > in an alley, a mewling thing > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > Red Jack - what's in a name? > They are all the same. > > Rob > > -- > Rob Evans > So you're saying that spring is like a pedophile, raping and then killing winter? That is a unique way of looking at it - and that's an important part of the poet's job, to show people alternate ways of looking at the world. However, I don't think your poem succeeds in the second part of the job, getting the reader to look at things that way himself. I think the main reason it fails to do that is its brevity. |
| #10 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
Amadeus Jinn wrote:
> "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlmark@arvig.net> wrote in message news:YqSdnTXqqbT9pu3bnZ2dnUVZ_vXinZ2d@onvoy.com... > >>Rob wrote: >> >> >>>Here's Jack! >>> >>>A red flower by any other name: >>>The Green Man, the Risen Man, >>>Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting. >>> >>>Until she appears - young, >>>not strong, not knowing spring, >>>the Corn King, has found her. >>> >>>Winter. >>> >>>She's thirteen. She drops, >>>in an alley, a mewling thing >>>and runs for mercy to the rain. >>> >>>Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >>>Red Jack - what's in a name? >>>They are all the same. >>> >>>Rob >>> >> >>Are the symbols a little too private? > > > It is like he is saying he's an amateur. Hold on tight, Marie. > > Like you. > > Rob found his /place/. > > *Winter* > > -- -------(m+ ~/ )_|I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. http://scrawlmark.org |
| #11 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
Will Dockery wrote:
> "Amadeus Jinn" wrote: > >> >>>Are the symbols a little too private? >> >>It is like he is saying he's an amateur. >> >>Like you. >> > > Senility? > You're /'way/ too young. It hasta be stupidity. -- -------(m+ ~/ )_|I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. http://scrawlmark.org |
| #12 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
Rob wrote:
> In message <YqSdnTXqqbT9pu3bnZ2dnUVZ_vXinZ2d@onvoy.com>, Dennis M. > Hammes <scrawlmark@arvig.net> writes > >> Rob wrote: >> >>> Here's Jack! >>> A red flower by any other name: >>> The Green Man, the Risen Man, >>> Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting… >>> Until she appears - young, >>> not strong, not knowing spring, >>> the Corn King, has found her. >>> Winter. >>> She's thirteen. She drops, >>> in an alley, a mewling thing >>> and runs for mercy to the rain. >>> Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >>> Red Jack - what's in a name? >>> They are all the same. >>> Rob >>> >> >> Are the symbols a little too private? >> I get something, to be sure, but "It"? >> > Maybe too English, I guess. > > The Green Man, Jack-in-the-Green, the Risen Man are all dark/light pagan > fertility myths. The Corn King is the Mediterranean equivalent. > Pregnant 13 year olds were common way back then and a tragedy now. Hence > Red Jack (the Ripper). > > Rob Where's Campbell and Fraser when I need them. Tnx. Yeh, it works if I push it. For one who had those things indexed immediately, it'd probably work immediately. The Corn King (and Queen) are a fertility /sacrifice/. Hey, it did for you, yes? I think the reader'd need only a little help here and there; reads like a rapid-cut /noir/ opening /before/ the CSIs stand around explaining it. If some of the flashes lasted a little longer... -- -------(m+ ~/ )_|I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. http://scrawlmark.org |
| #13 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
OB wrote:
> On Jun 13, 1:46 pm, "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote: > >>Rob wrote: >> >>>Here's Jack! >> >>>A red flower by any other name: >>>The Green Man, the Risen Man, >>>Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... >> >>>Until she appears - young, >>>not strong, not knowing spring, >>>the Corn King, has found her. >> >>>Winter. >> >>>She's thirteen. She drops, >>>in an alley, a mewling thing >>>and runs for mercy to the rain. >> >>>Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >>>Red Jack - what's in a name? >>>They are all the same. >> >>>Rob >> >>Are the symbols a little too private? >> I get something, to be sure, but "It"? > > > Makes me wonder if Rob read the same article I did, written by someone > called Jack about what it means to be called Jack. It was a good > article but damned if I can remember when, where, who. Aside from > that, it's obviously Blake's sick Rose for those with Upgraded > Sensibilities. > > Worked for me (esp, last line, and the wonderfully arch "Corn King"), > so I guess (some of) it's backwardly compatible. > Heh. That too. When scenes are sufficiently short and varied, the number of potentially-valid scenarios can be very large. Mystery writers do it all the time. And what pome ain't a mystery? Here's /Cadfael/ writ small by Tarantino. -- -------(m+ ~/ )_|I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. http://scrawlmark.org |
| #14 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
Karla wrote:
> In article <PXp3ZjAsRtbGFwL4@mla001.demon.co.uk>, Rob says... > >>Here's Jack! >> >>A red flower by any other name: >>The Green Man, the Risen Man, >>Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting… >> >>Until she appears - young, >>not strong, not knowing spring, >>the Corn King, has found her. >> >>Winter. >> >>She's thirteen. She drops, >>in an alley, a mewling thing >>and runs for mercy to the rain. > > > I like the sounds in this stanza the best (thirteen/alley/mewling). Not sure I > agree with the comma after "drops". If you leave the comma out is there an > alternative understanding that blossoms? Interesting turn of phrase "runs...to > the rain". Rain is all around, not a destination, right? Is she running to the > beat? I like that even if you didn't intend it. > > Karla Cf. "drops a foal," i.e., "drops... a mewling thing and runs for mercy..." > >>Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >>Red Jack - what's in a name? >>They are all the same. >> >>Rob >> > > > -- -------(m+ ~/ )_|I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. http://scrawlmark.org |
| #15 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
"Rob" <rre@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:tsIPH3F0mXcGFw1$@mla001.demon.co.uk... > Nevertheless, It's been fun and a revealing thread. A number of people have made interesting observations and helped point out > weaknesses. Only two (guess who) needed to talk about the poet rather than the poem. Ah well. With the crap you sling I wander what you expected? You attack people all the time. -- AJ - http://Here.Nu http://Midis.Here.Nu http://Art.Here.Nu |
| #16 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 15, 4:19 am, "Amadeus Jinn" wrote:
> "Rob Evans" wrote: > > >Only two (guess who) needed to talk about the poet rather than the poem. Ah well. > > With the crap you sling I wonder what you expected? > You attack people all the time. Mushmouth is a hypocritical whiner... and an unexceptional poet. That covers the poet /and/ the poem. -- "Ozone Stigmata" by Will Dockery-Henry Conley (video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxfl_7KvFcc "The Ride (Combat Zone)" by Will Dockery-Dennis Beck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxfl_7KvFcc > AJ -http://Here.Nu > http://Midis.Here.Nu > http://Art.Here.Nu |
| #17 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 09:32:50 -0700, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Jun 15, 4:19 am, "Amadeus Jinn" wrote: >> "Rob Evans" wrote: >> >> >Only two (guess who) needed to talk about the poet rather than the poem. Ah well. >> >> With the crap you sling I wonder what you expected? >> You attack people all the time. > > Mushmouth is a hypocritical whiner... and an unexceptional poet. > > That covers the poet /and/ the poem. Jealous rant from a drunken fool. heh |
| #18 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 14, 8:01 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 10:14 am, Rob <r...@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > Here's Jack! > > > A red flower by any other name: > > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... > > > Until she appears - young, > > not strong, not knowing spring, > > the Corn King, has found her. > > > Winter. > > > She's thirteen. She drops, > > in an alley, a mewling thing > > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > > Red Jack - what's in a name? > > They are all the same. > > > Rob > > > -- > > Rob Evans > > So you're saying that spring is like a pedophile, raping and then > killing winter? That is a unique way of looking at it - and that's an > important part of the poet's job, to show people alternate ways of > looking at the world. However, I don't think your poem succeeds in > the second part of the job, getting the reader to look at things that > way himself. I think the main reason it fails to do that is its > brevity. I disagree. I think that what works about this poem works in part *because* of its brevity. I would change some of the punctuation: the commas after "Corn King" and "drops" (as Karla also suggested). My poetry teacher would groan at the gerunds: waiting, knowing, mewling. "*Until* she appears" -- do you need this preposition? We can follow along without it, and here is the innocent 13-year-old child. She is empty, except for being 13 & young both. I mean a young 13. Is that duplication necessary in a short poem? Everything else is what she is not: not strong, unaware of spring despite 13 years already. Sounds pretty stupid to me, probably just an unthinking, unfeeling empty vessel for your many gods to use. The Green Man waits, youth appears, Corn King finds her. The season changes. I like it when the landscape reflects the narrative, but is it a bit cheap to turn the poem on a one-word abstraction? Wouldn't the poem open up for us more if it gave us some winter imagery, some story-related detail? I like the last two stanzas the best, but I agree with George that it's not quite working. I mean, I really don't feel sorry for the empty-headed little idiot. Her disgrace was inevitable. But I don't feel any fatalism about that, either. My two cents. Leisha |
| #19 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
Rob wrote:
> In message <ndSdnWFJceOJ6OzbnZ2dnUVZ_rGinZ2d@onvoy.com>, Dennis M. > Hammes <scrawlmark@arvig.net> writes > >> Rob wrote: >> >>> In message <YqSdnTXqqbT9pu3bnZ2dnUVZ_vXinZ2d@onvoy.com>, Dennis M. >>> Hammes <scrawlmark@arvig.net> writes >>> >>>> Rob wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here's Jack! >>>>> A red flower by any other name: >>>>> The Green Man, the Risen Man, >>>>> Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting… >>>>> Until she appears - young, >>>>> not strong, not knowing spring, >>>>> the Corn King, has found her. >>>>> Winter. >>>>> She's thirteen. She drops, >>>>> in an alley, a mewling thing >>>>> and runs for mercy to the rain. >>>>> Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >>>>> Red Jack - what's in a name? >>>>> They are all the same. >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>> >>>> Are the symbols a little too private? >>>> I get something, to be sure, but "It"? >>>> >>> Maybe too English, I guess. >>> The Green Man, Jack-in-the-Green, the Risen Man are all dark/light >>> pagan fertility myths. The Corn King is the Mediterranean >>> equivalent. Pregnant 13 year olds were common way back then and a >>> tragedy now. Hence Red Jack (the Ripper). >>> Rob >> >> >> >> Where's Campbell and Fraser when I need them. >> Tnx. Yeh, it works if I push it. For one who had those things >> indexed immediately, it'd probably work immediately. The Corn King >> (and Queen) are a fertility /sacrifice/. >> Hey, it did for you, yes? >> I think the reader'd need only a little help here and there; reads >> like a rapid-cut /noir/ opening /before/ the CSIs stand around >> explaining it. If some of the flashes lasted a little longer... >> > I know what you mean Dennis and I think someone else has commented that > it would work better if longer but I'm not sure. > > It has clipped lines, internal rhymes and, I hope, cuts. I don't think > that can work if over extended. It would almost certainly lose the voice, and would lose the sense of clue flashes. > > Nevertheless, It's been fun and a revealing thread. A number of people > have made interesting observations and helped point out weaknesses. Only > two (guess who) needed to talk about the poet rather than the poem. Ah > well. > > Rob "The poet? The poet lies too much!" ~~ F. Nietzsche Gesundheit -- -------(m+ ~/ )_|I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon. http://scrawlmark.org |
| #20 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
In article <1181931751.373802.173820@j4g2000prf.googlegroups. com>, NoLinks
says... > >On Jun 14, 8:01 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote: >> On Jun 12, 10:14 am, Rob <r...@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Here's Jack! >> >> > A red flower by any other name: >> > The Green Man, the Risen Man, >> > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... >> >> > Until she appears - young, >> > not strong, not knowing spring, >> > the Corn King, has found her. >> >> > Winter. >> >> > She's thirteen. She drops, >> > in an alley, a mewling thing >> > and runs for mercy to the rain. >> >> > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >> > Red Jack - what's in a name? >> > They are all the same. >> >> > Rob >> >> > -- >> > Rob Evans >> >> So you're saying that spring is like a pedophile, raping and then >> killing winter? That is a unique way of looking at it - and that's an >> important part of the poet's job, to show people alternate ways of >> looking at the world. However, I don't think your poem succeeds in >> the second part of the job, getting the reader to look at things that >> way himself. I think the main reason it fails to do that is its >> brevity. > >I disagree. I think that what works about this poem works in part >*because* of its brevity. I would change some of the punctuation: the >commas after "Corn King" and "drops" (as Karla also suggested). > >My poetry teacher would groan at the gerunds: waiting, knowing, >mewling. "*Until* she appears" -- do you need this preposition? We can >follow along without it, and here is the innocent 13-year-old child. >She is empty, except for being 13 & young both. I mean a young 13. Is >that duplication necessary in a short poem? Everything else is what >she is not: not strong, unaware of spring despite 13 years already. >Sounds pretty stupid to me, probably just an unthinking, unfeeling >empty vessel for your many gods to use. > >The Green Man waits, youth appears, Corn King finds her. The season >changes. I like it when the landscape reflects the narrative, but is >it a bit cheap to turn the poem on a one-word abstraction? Wouldn't >the poem open up for us more if it gave us some winter imagery, some >story-related detail? > >I like the last two stanzas the best, but I agree with George that >it's not quite working. I mean, I really don't feel sorry for the >empty-headed little idiot. Her disgrace was inevitable. But I don't >feel any fatalism about that, either. Hmm, I didn't think I was supposed to feel anything for the mewling thing. This is all about Jack. "Here's Jack!" It's Hollywood, and all about the serial killer. We're lucky Rob didn't treat us to Jack biting her face off. I agree about the poem needing something. I'm too close throughout the poem to the delight of the writer's pooling of 'Jack' types. The 'what's in the name/they are all the same" is obvious. Maybe withhold the "red flower" at the beginning? End with Red Jack? The tipoff of the title then leads to a last image and I see blood on his mouth, blood on his hands. Karla >My two cents. > >Leisha > -- -- |
| #21 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
In message <e7adna_BuO-t0e_bnZ2dnUVZ_qarnZ2d@giganews.com>, Amadeus Jinn
<a-jinn@here.nu> writes > Ook? OOK? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese!!! Rob -- Rob Evans When I see a swine I reach for 45-calibre pearls. -- Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------ Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access |
| #22 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
"Karla" <karlark@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote in message news:f4umol018vf@drn.newsguy.com... > In article <1181931751.373802.173820@j4g2000prf.googlegroups. com>, NoLinks > says... >> >>On Jun 14, 8:01 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote: >>> On Jun 12, 10:14 am, Rob <r...@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> > Here's Jack! >>> >>> > A red flower by any other name: >>> > The Green Man, the Risen Man, >>> > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... >>> >>> > Until she appears - young, >>> > not strong, not knowing spring, >>> > the Corn King, has found her. >>> >>> > Winter. >>> >>> > She's thirteen. She drops, >>> > in an alley, a mewling thing >>> > and runs for mercy to the rain. >>> >>> > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, >>> > Red Jack - what's in a name? >>> > They are all the same. >>> >>> > Rob >>> >>> > -- >>> > Rob Evans >>> >>> So you're saying that spring is like a pedophile, raping and then >>> killing winter? That is a unique way of looking at it - and that's an >>> important part of the poet's job, to show people alternate ways of >>> looking at the world. However, I don't think your poem succeeds in >>> the second part of the job, getting the reader to look at things that >>> way himself. I think the main reason it fails to do that is its >>> brevity. >> >>I disagree. I think that what works about this poem works in part >>*because* of its brevity. I would change some of the punctuation: the >>commas after "Corn King" and "drops" (as Karla also suggested). >> >>My poetry teacher would groan at the gerunds: waiting, knowing, >>mewling. "*Until* she appears" -- do you need this preposition? We can >>follow along without it, and here is the innocent 13-year-old child. >>She is empty, except for being 13 & young both. I mean a young 13. Is >>that duplication necessary in a short poem? Everything else is what >>she is not: not strong, unaware of spring despite 13 years already. >>Sounds pretty stupid to me, probably just an unthinking, unfeeling >>empty vessel for your many gods to use. >> >>The Green Man waits, youth appears, Corn King finds her. The season >>changes. I like it when the landscape reflects the narrative, but is >>it a bit cheap to turn the poem on a one-word abstraction? Wouldn't >>the poem open up for us more if it gave us some winter imagery, some >>story-related detail? >> >>I like the last two stanzas the best, but I agree with George that >>it's not quite working. I mean, I really don't feel sorry for the >>empty-headed little idiot. Her disgrace was inevitable. But I don't >>feel any fatalism about that, either. > > Hmm, I didn't think I was supposed to feel anything for the mewling thing. This > is all about Jack. "Here's Jack!" It's Hollywood, and all about the serial > killer. We're lucky Rob didn't treat us to Jack biting her face off. I agree > about the poem needing something. I'm too close throughout the poem to the > delight of the writer's pooling of 'Jack' types. The 'what's in the name/they > are all the same" is obvious. Maybe withhold the "red flower" at the beginning? > End with Red Jack? The tipoff of the title then leads to a last image and I see > blood on his mouth, blood on his hands. Imaginative drivel. -- AJ - http://Here.Nu http://Midis.Here.Nu http://Art.Here.Nu |
| #23 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 15, 1:22 pm, NoLinks <leisha.wharfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 14, 8:01 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 12, 10:14 am, Rob <r...@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > Here's Jack! > > > > A red flower by any other name: > > > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > > > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... > > > > Until she appears - young, > > > not strong, not knowing spring, > > > the Corn King, has found her. > > > > Winter. > > > > She's thirteen. She drops, > > > in an alley, a mewling thing > > > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > > > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > > > Red Jack - what's in a name? > > > They are all the same. > > > > Rob > > > > -- > > > Rob Evans > > > So you're saying that spring is like a pedophile, raping and then > > killing winter? That is a unique way of looking at it - and that's an > > important part of the poet's job, to show people alternate ways of > > looking at the world. However, I don't think your poem succeeds in > > the second part of the job, getting the reader to look at things that > > way himself. I think the main reason it fails to do that is its > > brevity. > > I disagree. I think that what works about this poem works in part > *because* of its brevity. I would change some of the punctuation: the > commas after "Corn King" and "drops" (as Karla also suggested). > > My poetry teacher would groan at the gerunds: waiting, knowing, > mewling. Actually, there are no gerunds in the poem at all. Waiting, knowing and mewling are, in context, present participles. Anyway, what's wrong with gerunds? > I like the last two stanzas the best, but I agree with George that > it's not quite working. I mean, I really don't feel sorry for the > empty-headed little idiot. Her disgrace was inevitable. But I don't > feel any fatalism about that, either. I don't think anyone's expected to "feel sorry" for her. There isn't enough evidence in the poem to call her "empty-headed" or an idiot, either. The fact that her story is linked to the change of seasons suggests a kind of fatalism. These things just happen. > > My two cents. > > Leisha- |
| #24 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 16, 3:10 pm, OB <nevilemo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 15, 1:22 pm, NoLinks <leisha.wharfi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 14, 8:01 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote: > > > > On Jun 12, 10:14 am, Rob <r...@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > Here's Jack! > > > > > A red flower by any other name: > > > > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > > > > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... > > > > > Until she appears - young, > > > > not strong, not knowing spring, > > > > the Corn King, has found her. > > > > > Winter. > > > > > She's thirteen. She drops, > > > > in an alley, a mewling thing > > > > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > > > > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > > > > Red Jack - what's in a name? > > > > They are all the same. > > > > > Rob > > > > > -- > > > > Rob Evans > > > > So you're saying that spring is like a pedophile, raping and then > > > killing winter? That is a unique way of looking at it - and that's an > > > important part of the poet's job, to show people alternate ways of > > > looking at the world. However, I don't think your poem succeeds in > > > the second part of the job, getting the reader to look at things that > > > way himself. I think the main reason it fails to do that is its > > > brevity. > > > I disagree. I think that what works about this poem works in part > > *because* of its brevity. I would change some of the punctuation: the > > commas after "Corn King" and "drops" (as Karla also suggested). > > > My poetry teacher would groan at the gerunds: waiting, knowing, > > mewling. > > Actually, there are no gerunds in the poem at all. Waiting, knowing > and mewling are, in context, present participles. Anyway, what's wrong > with gerunds? > I don't know. It's one of those things I got hit with in these college poetry-writing classes. Gerunds don't work. But I had already heard about that here, too. "ing" doesn't work, doesn't help. Ever. Trying to avoid them results in cryptic poetry. Is this the New Millenium, academic dogma? Seems like it's been around for a while. But I'd like to hear from anyone who can explain it. Leisha |
| #25 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 17, 10:29 pm, NoLinks <leisha.wharfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 16, 3:10 pm, OB <nevilemo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 15, 1:22 pm, NoLinks <leisha.wharfi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 14, 8:01 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 12, 10:14 am, Rob <r...@mla001.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > Here's Jack! > > > > > > A red flower by any other name: > > > > > The Green Man, the Risen Man, > > > > > Jack-in-the-Green, is waiting... > > > > > > Until she appears - young, > > > > > not strong, not knowing spring, > > > > > the Corn King, has found her. > > > > > > Winter. > > > > > > She's thirteen. She drops, > > > > > in an alley, a mewling thing > > > > > and runs for mercy to the rain. > > > > > > Jack-in-the-Green, Ripper, > > > > > Red Jack - what's in a name? > > > > > They are all the same. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > -- > > > > > Rob Evans > > > > > So you're saying that spring is like a pedophile, raping and then > > > > killing winter? That is a unique way of looking at it - and that's an > > > > important part of the poet's job, to show people alternate ways of > > > > looking at the world. However, I don't think your poem succeeds in > > > > the second part of the job, getting the reader to look at things that > > > > way himself. I think the main reason it fails to do that is its > > > > brevity. > > > > I disagree. I think that what works about this poem works in part > > > *because* of its brevity. I would change some of the punctuation: the > > > commas after "Corn King" and "drops" (as Karla also suggested). > > > > My poetry teacher would groan at the gerunds: waiting, knowing, > > > mewling. > > > Actually, there are no gerunds in the poem at all. Waiting, knowing > > and mewling are, in context, present participles. Anyway, what's wrong > > with gerunds? > > I don't know. It's one of those things I got hit with in these college > poetry-writing classes. Gerunds don't work. But I had already heard > about that here, too. "ing" doesn't work, doesn't help. Ever. > > Trying to avoid them results in cryptic poetry. Is this the New > Millenium, academic dogma? Seems like it's been around for a while. > But I'd like to hear from anyone who can explain it. "Once Paumanok..." If you disapprove of Whitman, you might disapprove of present participles by reflex. I can't disapprove of "Out of the Cradle" after what Delius did with it. Much as I'd like to. Absurdity after absurdity, but it somehow gets there. |
| #26 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
"Sherrie Lee" <sherriel383@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1182161726.390108.263660@m36g2000hse.googlegr oups.com... > On Jun 17, 11:31 pm, NoLinks <leisha.wharfi...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jun 16, 5:11 am, Sherrie Lee <sherriel...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Sherrie, I love you. I doubt whether we should censor ourselves in >> order not to arouse pedophiles, or anyone else. >> >> Leisha > > Wow! I did not expect the Ily! Thank you. Leisha speaks for me. We both love you. (even if you can't write a sonnet) > > Have you heard about Iran putting a death penalty on anyone accused of > pornography? I hear they're back to that, allegedly, of course. I > haven't done my own research. That's bad. I used to spend over $100 bucks a month on "mags". Bought them around the world, as much as I could. Now -- Usenet has it all. Neener.  > > Also, check out Sophie Scholl. No surprise there, considering the > climax of her story took place in 1943 Germany, but still. > > Is it true? Hitler was an artist AND a vegetarian?! > > You address gerunds here. I don't think gerunds are only 'ing' words. > I think it's a possessive thing, and I've heard that, as well, that > some writer-types avoid them. I hating those gerundy thingies. -- AJ - http://Here.Nu http://Midis.Here.Nu http://Art.Here.Nu > |
| #27 | |
|
|
Re: Here's Jack!
On Jun 18, 6:39 am, "Amadeus Jinn" <a-j...@here.nu> wrote:
> "Sherrie Lee" <sherriel...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1182161726.390108.263660@m36g2000hse.g ooglegroups.com... > > On Jun 17, 11:31 pm, NoLinks <leisha.wharfi...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Jun 16, 5:11 am, Sherrie Lee <sherriel...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Sherrie, I love you. I doubt whether we should censor ourselves in > >> order not to arouse pedophiles, or anyone else. > > >> Leisha > > > Wow! I did not expect the Ily! Thank you. > > Leisha speaks for me. We both love you. > (even if you can't write a sonnet) troll. > > Have you heard about Iran putting a death penalty on anyone accused of > > pornography? I hear they're back to that, allegedly, of course. I > > haven't done my own research. > > That's bad. I used to spend over $100 bucks a month > on "mags". Bought them around the world, as much > as I could. Now -- Usenet has it all. > > Neener. > > > > > Also, check out Sophie Scholl. No surprise there, considering the > > climax of her story took place in 1943 Germany, but still. > > > Is it true? Hitler was an artist AND a vegetarian?! > > > You address gerunds here. I don't think gerunds are only 'ing' words. > > I think it's a possessive thing, and I've heard that, as well, that > > some writer-types avoid them. > > I hating those gerundy thingies. My hating those gerunds things. |
