Re: Wireless Fence

TOTE@dog-play.com wrote:
> On 9 Mar 2005 07:00:43 -0800 rusty.henderson@gmail.com whittled these
words:
> > I bought a wireless fence from Home Depot for my lab mix CJ. I
have
> > noticed that the range can vary from day to day and doesn't seem to
be
> > consistent. Has anyone had this problem?
>
> It is a common problem - mostly with cheaper devices.
>
> --
> Diane Blackman
> http://dog-play.com/
> http://dogplay.com/Shop/

HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b47md.43283$5K2.25602@attbi_s03...
> Emily Carroll/Fluttervale wrote:
>
> > Usually if you're wearing shoes and only touch
> > the hotwire, you don't feel a thing.
> >
> > Now if you're not wearing shoes or if you stick
> > your hand in a waterbucket...
>
>
> That's what would worry me.

That so? That'd pretty much cook your goose, eh liea?

> Stranger things have happened.

You mean like your dog comin DHOWEN with
an anxiHOWES head shaking OCD on accHOWENT
of you can't stop jerk and choking her on your pronged
spiked pinch choke collars and shocking IT:

> --Lia

BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but w e'vecomealongwaysincethen.Shetrusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?"

"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
>
> After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
> Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
> is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
> keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
> up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
> and the vet agrees.
>
> --Lia

"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV"

THAT'S an OCD, like the head shake Cubbe is
developing. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING
and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST
advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing
Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM
INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES.

From: culprit (culprit@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing bark alert,
while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST

"micha el" <spam_yurself@spamyourmamma.com> wrote in message
news:yIydnZpPsIzg6l_d4p2dnA@comcast.com...
>
> Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
> it felt like to me when I got shocked by
> Hope's collar.
>
> It felt like a bomb going off in my
> hand and forearm.

--------------------------------

"Tricia9999" <tricia9999@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021117101433.10365.00000067@mb-cg.aol.com...

> >> how effective are these electronic fences in
> >> keeping a dog on a property????
>
> Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
> too scared to go out in the yard anymore.
>
> Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
> because the dog got caught right in the path of
> the shock and will now not go near his person,
> won't go outside.
>
> Just hides under a desk in the house.

"J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com...
>
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
>
> Janet Boss

"sionnach" <rhyfelwr@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com...
>
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Here is a video from Fred which I have a few concerns
about (and maybe Fred can weigh in if he sees fit), THE
SAME "FRED" that johnny would invite to heelp his
shelter dogs learn RESPECT.

This is a video about Nero being taught to get on
a skateboard.

http://www.studioonline.com/playvide...E284B9ABDFCE0F

or http://tinyurl.com/389al
In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.

If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.

Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh
Even your PALS the "DOG LOVERS" on the
abuse groups were HOWEtraged by those stunts.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good
of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those
who torment us for our own good will torment us
without end, for they do so with the approval of
their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis.

"Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny",
Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon.

"Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right action
as separate, not the wise. If any man knows one, he
enjoys the fruit of both. The level which is reached by
wisdom is attained through right action as well. He who
perceives that the two are one knows the truth."

"Even the wise man acts in character with his nature,
indeed all creatures act according to their natures.
What is the use of compulsion then? The love and
hate which are aroused by the objects of sense arise
from Nature, do not yield to them. They only obstruct
the path." Bhagavad Gita, adapted by Krishna with
permission from His FREE copy of my FREE Wits'
End Dog Training Method manual.

Force training JERRYIZES dogs, and GETS THEM DEAD.

Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog
and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only friend
and assaulting a couple kids and escaping her
surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless:

Julia F N Altshuler (d000634c@dc.seflin.org)
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the
first time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were
when we first got her before she'd had any training
and before we got the electric fence to reinforce the
physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored
clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was
horrible for us. She had a blast running free and
chasing whatever she wanted.

For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we
tried to catch her.

Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday
morning. It had snowed, and the streets weren't
quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her when she
was preoccupied with her head down a hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash.
She gets daily indoor clicker training sessions.

She has perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats
for those recalls. She gets
plenty of time to run free in the backyard.

Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been
working on them. I haven't been as good about
introducing the variable reinforcement there, but
I have been good about making sure that she's
never tricked into coming into the house when
she'd rather be outside. I always call her, give
her a treat or praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't
think I'm a terrible one. I say that because I'm about
to ask y'all for some help in correcting my mistakes,
and while I don't mind criticism for past mistakes, I
am hoping you'll concentrate on what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice
backyard time. I'd gotten her into the house and
was preparing to leave when she escaped straight through the front
door and right in front of our noses.

She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when
she went over the wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collarnow
with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to come in
when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I could tell
that she fully expected to be let out the front door again so she
could have another fun romp in the neighborhood.

I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every
time I open the door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and
could zap her when she's near certain windows inside.

If I let her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar,
can I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the front
door with her leash on?

I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god
forbid, it should happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this I
mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because she so
obviously freaked when we
used leash corrections and scoldings when we first
got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state
my opinion once and won't defend it further: any
method can be cruel for some dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for
Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long
way since then.

She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their
3 daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved
Cubbe and were having a blast clicker training her.
I was impressed with how quickly they caught on
and how little correction they needed to be consistent
with the clicks and treats.

Cubbe was fine with the children; she always
has been. Just as they were getting ready to
go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.

Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined
because she gave a snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know
that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't
frightened at all, and her parents who were also right
there hadn't realized what had happened. I then asked
the snarlee to rub Cubbe's belly further to reinforce
that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship.

I let Cubbe up and all was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.

Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing with
Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3DC4A3BD.645A4FC9@attbi.com...

> I need help deciding if I have a real problem with
> Cubbe that needs immediate attention or if I'm
> imagining trouble where there is none.
>
> Here's what happened last April the way I described
> it to a friend at the time:
>
> I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking
> myself for doing something stupid. Ellie has been
> over many times and has always gotten along great
> with Cubbe. Cubbe is always at the door when I let
> Ellie in.
>
> She's barky-protective but then stops barking once
> Ellie is inside. She's never shown any real
> aggression. The other night Ellie and I went out
> together to run an errand.
>
> Ellie was coming in the house with packages so
> I came in first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with
> Jim so Ellie could get through the door more easily.
>
> I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was inside,
> I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out
> to attack the intruder.
>
> Ellie was trying to be friendly.
>
> Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
> scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed
> when they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every
> night, but Ellie was understandably scared.
>
> Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away.
> I got Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary
> thing is that, even though the damage is minor, it
> does qualify as a bite since Cubbe did mean to do it.
>
> I guess I should just learn from it and never let
> Cubbe greet someone like that again, but I'm
> horribly torn up.
>
> I've said that I would never keep an aggressive
> dog. Now the whole issue is so complicated.
>
> Cubbe is great even with kids when we meet
> them in the neighborhood.
>
> Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.
>
> Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the
> night in the computer room with Jim while I answered
> the door. She did bark each time she heard the
> doorbell ring. We did nothing to discourage that.
>
> We want her to be barky protective so
> it made sense for her to bark when she
> heard people in the neighborhood, especially
> at night. Later in the evening, Jim put Cubbe
> on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
> front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
> people to come to the door once she was out of the
> computer room was our neighbor Nicky.
>
> I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since
> we got her 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted
> her and asked to come on walks. Nick lifted his mask
> on the porch so I'd know who it was.
>
> Then I invited him into the hall to pet Cubbe.
>
>
> Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him.
> Of course Jim was right there so no damage was
> done. Nick didn't even have to draw his hand away,
> and he didn't get scared.
>
> Nothing scares that boy.
>
> I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
> protective-aggressive when people have entered the
> house.
>
> Both times they've been people she knows and
> should like. She's wonderfully nice to people on
> walks. We don't have guests over too often so
> I can't comment if it's a growing thing or not.
>
> Comments please. Is this a major growing
> aggression problem?
>
> I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
> What do I do about it?
>
> I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
> and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
> her car, and then we walk in together.
>
> She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
> calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
> doing something more to make sure this doesn't
> escalate?
> --Lia

From: Julia Altshuler (jaltshuler@comcast.net)
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced
fighter so I don't know if attack is the right word. She
was snarfing, making growly noises, jumping on Chief,
had her mouth on Chief's neck (on his back, behind his
ears) and basically not looking friendly, but I think if she'd
wanted to do real damage, she would have, and Chief
was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to
intervene in seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them
for chat and apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe
story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people.

Might she have been guarding the balls Jim brought
out? Or was it the fact that we let our guard down for
a few seconds and she got scared of Chief when we
all weren't practically on top of her?

Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a
few seconds would have been better for a first try?

Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================

	#1
It's Only Alimentary, Dear Watson	Re: Wireless Fence TOTE@dog-play.com wrote: > On 9 Mar 2005 07:00:43 -0800 rusty.henderson@gmail.com whittled these words: > > I bought a wireless fence from Home Depot for my lab mix CJ. I have > > noticed that the range can vary from day to day and doesn't seem to be > > consistent. Has anyone had this problem? > > It is a common problem - mostly with cheaper devices. > > -- > Diane Blackman > http://dog-play.com/ > http://dogplay.com/Shop/ HOWEDY liea, "Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@comcast.net> wrote in message news:b47md.43283$5K2.25602@attbi_s03... > Emily Carroll/Fluttervale wrote: > > > Usually if you're wearing shoes and only touch > > the hotwire, you don't feel a thing. > > > > Now if you're not wearing shoes or if you stick > > your hand in a waterbucket... > > > That's what would worry me. That so? That'd pretty much cook your goose, eh liea? > Stranger things have happened. You mean like your dog comin DHOWEN with an anxiHOWES head shaking OCD on accHOWENT of you can't stop jerk and choking her on your pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shocking IT: > --Lia BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!! "I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe. Humane is one of those hot words that people can debate all day so I won't touch that one. There are people who would call a regular chain link fence inhumane," liea altshuller. "I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but w e'vecomealongwaysincethen.Shetrusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell?" "Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@comcast.net> wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51... > > After talking with the vet yesterday and watching > Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking > is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue > keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything > up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological-- > and the vet agrees. > > --Lia "Things are beginning to get much worse day by day and the vets seem unable to help. http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV" THAT'S an OCD, like the head shake Cubbe is developing. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES. From: culprit (culprit@flashmail.com) Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing bark alert, while walking backwards Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST "micha el" <spam_yurself@spamyourmamma.com> wrote in message news:yIydnZpPsIzg6l_d4p2dnA@comcast.com... > > Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what > it felt like to me when I got shocked by > Hope's collar. > > It felt like a bomb going off in my > hand and forearm. -------------------------------- "Tricia9999" <tricia9999@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021117101433.10365.00000067@mb-cg.aol.com... > >> how effective are these electronic fences in > >> keeping a dog on a property???? > > Some run through it. Others get shocked and become > too scared to go out in the yard anymore. > > Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog, > because the dog got caught right in the path of > the shock and will now not go near his person, > won't go outside. > > Just hides under a desk in the house. "J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040324071828.07753.00000001@mb-m18.aol.com... > > He was next to me and I could see his neck > muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye. > > Janet Boss "sionnach" <rhyfelwr@msn.com> wrote in message news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de... > "J1Boss" <j1boss@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20040323173916.10096.00001938@mb-m17.aol.com... > > > > I can't imagine needing anything higher > > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive > > > dog like a Lab. An INSENSITIVE DOG??? > > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but > > I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9. Here is a video from Fred which I have a few concerns about (and maybe Fred can weigh in if he sees fit), THE SAME "FRED" that johnny would invite to heelp his shelter dogs learn RESPECT. This is a video about Nero being taught to get on a skateboard. http://www.studioonline.com/playvide...E284B9ABDFCE0F or http://tinyurl.com/389al In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that. If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much "experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how nationally "respected" they are/were. If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around because he is happy and for no other reason, well, then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can explain what would cause a dog to move his head like that. Here's a other: http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh Even your PALS the "DOG LOVERS" on the abuse groups were HOWEtraged by those stunts. "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims, may be the most oppressive. Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis. "Death is better, a milder fate than tyranny", Aeschylus (525BC-456BC), Agamemnon. "Only the unenlightened speak of wisdom and right action as separate, not the wise. If any man knows one, he enjoys the fruit of both. The level which is reached by wisdom is attained through right action as well. He who perceives that the two are one knows the truth." "Even the wise man acts in character with his nature, indeed all creatures act according to their natures. What is the use of compulsion then? The love and hate which are aroused by the objects of sense arise from Nature, do not yield to them. They only obstruct the path." Bhagavad Gita, adapted by Krishna with permission from His FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual. Force training JERRYIZES dogs, and GETS THEM DEAD. Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE HER AGGRESSIVE: "It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got Out In The Neighborhood Leashless: Julia F N Altshuler (d000634c@dc.seflin.org) Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got her before she'd had any training and before we got the electric fence to reinforce the physical one. It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her. Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a hole. For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard. Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or praise and let her go again. So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on what I should do now. Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she escaped straight through the front door and right in front of our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the wire, and the chase ensued. We were careful not to scold her once she was caught. Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collarnow with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front door again so she could have another fun romp in the neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the door. Later in the afternoon, she was much worse about coming when called even from the backyard. My specific questions: How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows when she's in a confined space and when she isn't? She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door. What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should happen again? Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and scoldings when we first got her. I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some dogs. Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in the mildest way, for not coming. Is it time for that? What might I look for to tell? Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3 daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine with the children; she always has been. Just as they were getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug. Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a snarl-snap. I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled, turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all was fine. I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now. Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing with Cubbe the escapee? --Lia =================== "Julia Altshuler" <jaltshuler@attbi.com> wrote in message news:3DC4A3BD.645A4FC9@attbi.com... > I need help deciding if I have a real problem with > Cubbe that needs immediate attention or if I'm > imagining trouble where there is none. > > Here's what happened last April the way I described > it to a friend at the time: > > I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking > myself for doing something stupid. Ellie has been > over many times and has always gotten along great > with Cubbe. Cubbe is always at the door when I let > Ellie in. > > She's barky-protective but then stops barking once > Ellie is inside. She's never shown any real > aggression. The other night Ellie and I went out > together to run an errand. > > Ellie was coming in the house with packages so > I came in first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with > Jim so Ellie could get through the door more easily. > > I could hear Cubbe barking. Once Ellie was inside, > I opened the bedroom door for Cubbe. She ran out > to attack the intruder. > > Ellie was trying to be friendly. > > Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting > scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed > when they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every > night, but Ellie was understandably scared. > > Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. > I got Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary > thing is that, even though the damage is minor, it > does qualify as a bite since Cubbe did mean to do it. > > I guess I should just learn from it and never let > Cubbe greet someone like that again, but I'm > horribly torn up. > > I've said that I would never keep an aggressive > dog. Now the whole issue is so complicated. > > Cubbe is great even with kids when we meet > them in the neighborhood. > > Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that. > > Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the > night in the computer room with Jim while I answered > the door. She did bark each time she heard the > doorbell ring. We did nothing to discourage that. > > We want her to be barky protective so > it made sense for her to bark when she > heard people in the neighborhood, especially > at night. Later in the evening, Jim put Cubbe > on a leash and was hanging out with her in the > front hall while I still got the door. One of the first > people to come to the door once she was out of the > computer room was our neighbor Nicky. > > I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since > we got her 4 years ago, has always liked her, petted > her and asked to come on walks. Nick lifted his mask > on the porch so I'd know who it was. > > Then I invited him into the hall to pet Cubbe. > > > Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. > Of course Jim was right there so no damage was > done. Nick didn't even have to draw his hand away, > and he didn't get scared. > > Nothing scares that boy. > > I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly > protective-aggressive when people have entered the > house. > > Both times they've been people she knows and > should like. She's wonderfully nice to people on > walks. We don't have guests over too often so > I can't comment if it's a growing thing or not. > > Comments please. Is this a major growing > aggression problem? > > I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard. > What do I do about it? > > I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over > and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of > her car, and then we walk in together. > > She'll still bark when they're in the house and then > calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be > doing something more to make sure this doesn't > escalate? > --Lia From: Julia Altshuler (jaltshuler@comcast.net) Subject: Cubbe report: Chief Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie. Jim has been running into them on his morning walks with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief. Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs. I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one that doesn't involve the companionship of her own species. Jim's reports were encouraging. Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate. We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs normally do. Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention to Chief, but there was no trouble even though she and Chief were close to each other. Both dogs seemed more interested that their people were handing out treats (for good behaviors like SITs). Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2 dogs would like to chase them together. He did not consult me about this hare brained scheme. Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing, making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage, she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place. Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in seconds. A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.) Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds would have been better for a first try? Or other theories? Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting Cubbe live a dogless existence? --Lia ===================